BAFFLED by BOTTOM BOUNCERS

[lonnie197272]

Another quick tidbit to add. With the addition to the second pole permit I like to run a slow death setup on one rod and either a spinner/smile blade on the other. Its amazing what the fish will tell you when you can offer up multiple choices. I have also found that with worm harnesses that if I am running into short biters if you put just half a crawler on you wont miss very many fish. Just make sure you have both hooks in the crawler. And using a baitcaster with a flippin switch will give you the better control on the amount of line to put out and quick adjustments.

[kjackson]

Speaking of the Slow Death setup--I was talking with a Minnesota touring pro about it. He said that it had been used for several years before P-K worked out their new hook/marketing program with Mustad. The original Slow Death used a Tru-Turn hook and Smile blade. He said it is deadly at times.

I know back when floating spinners started to become popular, Lindy brought out their version called the Fuzz-E-Spin that had a cylindrical float covered with a fuzz (for its scent holding capabilities) and used a single Tru Turn with no trailing hook. You threaded the crawler onto the hook, even pushing it up over the knot onto the leader, leaving a short section of crawler trailing. I caught a ton of walleyes on that.

If the fish will let you get away with it, the Tru Turn is a deadly hook with most fish hooked either in the roof of the mouth or somewhere on the lower jaw. I'm going to play with it for kokanee this coming year.

[Anglinarcher]

I think that this thread is what Forums are suppose to be all about. I love the responses so far, and I hope to stir up something more with bottom bouncers.

Bottom Bouncers, there not all alike.

On some days, Walleye just seem to want to jump on your line. It is like they are too cold or too hot and they think your boat is going to be better. :compress: On other days, I can see them on the fish finder, but they just don't seem to want anything. I assure you, they can be caught, but those are the days that drive fishermen nuts. It is true that they are not all that smart, but that does not make them easy to catch.

As a rule of thumb, use 1/2 ounce for every 5 feet of depth you will be fishing. Now I break that rule for shallow water, but let's start with the rule first. The reason for this is that this places your bait at about a 45 degree angle behind your boat. It keeps your bait closer to below you so the structure you are trying to follow is actually what your bottom bouncer is following as well. Also, because the line is pulling up and not parallel to the bottom, you snag less.

So, what about those days when the fish are boat shy? Break the rule! I have some 3/8 oz weights for fishing at 10 to 15 feet, and I have some quarter ounce slinkies I use as bottom bouncers on those days when I want to troll in-line spinners at less then 10 feet. To get the weights to the bottom, I use a lot of line, and this keeps the bait further from the boat. So, if it is super clear water, high noon, and the fish seem to be boat shy, use more line and less weight.

The next tip, make your own bottom bouncers. OK, I know this is a pain, but here is my thoughts. You want to feel the tick tick of the bottom. If that bottom is sand or mud, or even small gravel, then you may not feel the bottom until you are literally dragging the bottom. This puts the spinner or stick bait in the mud, creates snags, scares many fish .............. One way of improving the feel is by using a bottom bouncer that can transmit the feel better. The thin wires that most companies use to make the bouncers is just too flexible. Sure, it will work, but then again we want to be the top 10% or even 5% of the fishermen, not the other. So, the thicker the wire, the better - the stiffer the wire, the better. I often to to the lumber stores or better yet the model airplane stores and get 36" plastic tubes of the largest wire I can find (~.060" in Stainless Steel). If you can't find the wire, don't worry to much about it, I have other ideas, even better ideas, but that is the next installment.

So, what do you guys and gals suggest for bottom bouncer styles and tips?

[Anglinarcher]

Speaking of the Slow Death setup--I was talking with a Minnesota touring pro about it. He said that it had been used for several years before P-K worked out their new hook/marketing program with Mustad. The original Slow Death used a Tru-Turn hook and Smile blade. He said it is deadly at times.

I know back when floating spinners started to become popular, Lindy brought out their version called the Fuzz-E-Spin that had a cylindrical float covered with a fuzz (for its scent holding capabilities) and used a single Tru Turn with no trailing hook. You threaded the crawler onto the hook, even pushing it up over the knot onto the leader, leaving a short section of crawler trailing. I caught a ton of walleyes on that.

If the fish will let you get away with it, the Tru Turn is a deadly hook with most fish hooked either in the roof of the mouth or somewhere on the lower jaw. I'm going to play with it for kokanee this coming year.

I agree, the tru-turn is a great design, I just wish it was a better quality steel.

To show how well it works at times, just as a simple worm hook, I had a shallow crystal clear spring in southern Idaho where I could see these trout, about 12", stacked like cord wood. I'd drop a regular bait hook, with a worm on it, and I could not set the hook on those devils. I don't know what they were doing, but no dice, no hook ups. My son had given me a package of tru-turns for Christmas, so I put on one out of desperation. It hooked up every time. I started to use two hooks, one with the regular and one with the tru-turn, and the only hook-ups were with the tru-turns. GO FIGURE!

[lonnie197272]

Anglingarcher thats very good info. One thing I will add that goes against those rules is speed. I know that speed is a huge factor in playing the walleye game. There are times where you find fish but they wont bite. By adding heavier walkers and speeding up makes them have that reaction bite because they dont have time to process whats in front of them. Same goes for slowing down. You just have to play with speed and weight to find that combination that put those eyes in the boat. One thing I have gone to in shallow water is using mojo weights inline with my spinners on longer leaders. It gives you the advantage of having the line further behind the boat and very few snags plus great hook up percentage because there is far less hardware to worry about. Just some thots and all of this so far has been great info!!

[Anglinarcher]

Anglingarcher thats very good info. One thing I will add that goes against those rules is speed. I know that speed is a huge factor in playing the walleye game. There are times where you find fish but they wont bite. By adding heavier walkers and speeding up makes them have that reaction bite because they dont have time to process whats in front of them. Same goes for slowing down. You just have to play with speed and weight to find that combination that put those eyes in the boat. One thing I have gone to in shallow water is using mojo weights inline with my spinners on longer leaders. It gives you the advantage of having the line further behind the boat and very few snags plus great hook up percentage because there is far less hardware to worry about. Just some thots and all of this so far has been great info!!

I was not going to discuss speed for a few days, but you are dead on target. Thanks.

Now, what in the world are mojo weights? Time for me to learn from you.

[blufin loui]

Great information Guys, Could you please describe (in detail) the Slow Death Set-up and how to fish it?

Thanks ya'll, this is great

[lonnie197272]

Basically the Mojo weights are made for bass fishing a carolina rig. But what I have found is that by using these inline in shallow water especially weedy areas you can get thru those weeds without as many foul ups. Plus the hits in that type of environment are fast and ferious because the walleye are in a feeding mode so the inline weight allows for quick sharp hook sets. The Mojo weight looks like pencil lead. Now bare with me on this what I do is tie a larger loop on my spinner harness or slow death that way I can slide the mojo on the line right below the swivel on the loop. Works great for water less than 8' deep. Now the slow death for Blufin. It is a special hook made by Mustad that has a special bend in the shank. When you thread the worm on thread it all the way up past the eye of the hook so if follows the bend of the hook. Then pinch off all but about a 1/4 to 1/2" of the worm past the tip of the hook. Now you can use this with any type of weight system and troll it from 0.8 to 2 mph. Seems to me anything slower wont get the worm to spin or roll the way it is suppose to. I have had the best luck with this using just the hook or a single colored bead with the hook. I have heard people using blades but I havent tried it mainly because I have had such good success the other way. I would use a small blade if that is something you want to do so that you dont effect the roll of the hook. But hey experiiment I guess and see what happens.

[blufin loui]

Thanks for the explaination on the slow death. I can see how the principle could be deadly.

[Anglinarcher]

Thanks for the explaination on the slow death. I can see how the principle could be deadly.

Keep in mind that a swivel, ball bearing swivel, or bead chain swivel is critical. The "slow death roll" will twist your leader into a knot if you don't have one or more quality swivels, at the bottom bouncer end.

[Anglinarcher]

OK, let's get serious about bottom bouncers now. To start off, let's talk options.

The three-way swivel


I am including the following web link to a site that describes just how three-way-swivels can be used. It is clearly not inclusive, but it a pretty good start. If you can't click on it to work, copy it and past it into the web browser to get you there.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... CCwQ9QEwBA

The key to this system is that it is cheap, if you use braided line (lower poundage then the main line) it is sensitive, and weights can be less expensive.

To the best of my knowledge, this is the first "bottom bouncer" option we had. It is also probably the best method for trolling stick baits like the Rapala. I'll cover that later, but remember that the bottom leg can be any reasonable length.

[Anglinarcher]

The next real option is the traditional "bottom bouncer" we buy. It is good because the wire transmits bottom contour better, it tends to be more snag resistant then the three-way-rig (weight is above the bottom, not on it), and they can be inexpensive. But, to change weights on most over the counter models, you cut the main line, remove the leader, and tie in a lighter or heaver unit.

This model comes in the twisted eye or 'R' Bend model. If you tie your line to the twisted eye version, and then the rig twist on you, your line can get caught between the twists and it can cut you off. Be careful. If your model is the 'R' bend model (harder to find), then you don't cut off, but the line can slip up or down. Both models can be great, just be aware of this.

This model comes painted or un-painted. I wish I could tell you that one was better then the other, but I can't say I have ever caught more fish on a painted version then the un-painted version. Still, I also don't remember a time where painted fished worse, so to each his/her own on that.

I prefer the thickest wire on these that I can get. I even make my own, using the thick wire I discussed before, just because it makes so much difference. Also, the location of the weight makes a huge difference. Most over the counter have the weight somewhere in the middle, but ...........

Put the weight near the bottom and it can snag more often. Still, I find that it is more sensitive that way. Put the weight higher on the wire and it seldom snags, but it is less sensitive. If you make your own, then consider using rubber core sinkers, forcing the wire through the center, then sliding the weight up or down as needed. If you put an egg sinker above that, then you can locate the weight wherever you want, and you can change weight is seconds. I offer the attached pictures as a guide to what is available over the counter.

[Anglinarcher]

A not well known, but ever increasing option, is the pencil bottom bouncer.

The above information about the traditional is all true, but this model uses a swivel attached to the main line, a leader attached to the swivel, and the weight either attachés to a quick-change clevis or the line main line runs through the eye.

I really like this set-up, it takes up less space, it fishes easier for me, and I can buy the wire pre-made and then add the weights as I desire. The following link will take you to a source of .062" diameter Stainless Steel wire, 18" long. This is perfect for my style of pencil bottom bouncer.

When the fish are a little soft mouthed, you can feed the line back to the fish and often get a good take. With the three way swivel you are limited to the length of your dropper. With the traditional bottom bouncer, you get the length of the bottom wire, if anything. With this, you could, in theory, feed as much line as you wanted and the fish could run with it.

http://lurepartsonline.com/cart.php?m=p ... tail&p=874

[Anglinarcher]

The last option I will talk about is the snagless sinker by Lindy.

First of all, it is NOT snagless. It has excellent sensitivity, colors come with it, but they are expensive. Still, if I am fishing sand, I often go to these.

One problem is that the leg length or length from the main line to the bottom is short, very short. I plan on talking about that, so don't let me forget. This is one case where a floating rig is probably better when you fish it behind a "No-snagg" sinker.

[blufin loui]

Thanks for the explaination on the slow death. I can see how the principle could be deadly.

Keep in mind that a swivel, ball bearing swivel, or bead chain swivel is critical. The "slow death roll" will twist your leader into a knot if you don't have one or more quality swivels, at the bottom bouncer end.

An inline swivel is a standard in our fishing . we use the swivel in the line for all presentations when fishing the RW tripps, as we'll usually rig the offering in some manner to give the jig or bait a spin when twitched.

I'm loving the info, keep it up folks. I like the various techniques of different fishermen.

[kevinb]

Good stuff Anglinarcher,I'm really getting the walleye itch now,just never seems to be enough time.

[Anglinarcher]

Good stuff Anglinarcher,I'm really getting the walleye itch now,just never seems to be enough time.

It can be tough. I find that the best Walleye is right during my last of my best trout and first of my best Bass fishing, so I tend to push it off until later in the year. Roosevelt can be fun during June, July, August, and even sometimes September if you don't mind that the fish run a bit smaller.

Walleye can be large, very large, when fished for in December, January, and even February, but dang, it can be so cold during those months. Especially when it is suppose to get to -12 degrees F on Wednesday.

[Anglinarcher]

OK, I know I'm beating a dead horse, but let's try to wrap this up. Let's talk lure/bait presentations.

The question was asked about floating spinner rigs. I have been trying to figure out how to really answer that, and I guess the real answer is it depends. The reason that you would want a rig to 'float' is that you don't want it snagging up - you want the rig off the bottom.

Depending on the type of spinner blade you are using, the size of blade, the type of bait, they weight of the bait, you may or may not need a floating rig. Here is a suggestion. make your own and have all you need in a kit right on the water.

When you are ready, drop the rig over the edge at the speed you are trolling and see if the spinner is riding below the level of the weight. If it is, then you either need to shorten the leader or add float(s) or change the spinner or .................. So many options, so few ways of answering this question.

As a general rule of thumb, if I fish with a willow leaf blade, I use only 2 to 4 beads, a plastic blade clevis, and this will be good enough. If I am using an Indiana type blade, the larger the blade the more beads I can get away with. The Colorado style will allow even more weight, like as added with beads or wedding rings. The Simile blades are probably best used with 4 to 6 beads.

If I am not happy with how the spinner runs relative to the location of the weight, I add floats. There are a lot of great floats, but I use small corkies.

The above rig assumes that you are using worms as bait. In other states, mostly the Midwest states now, leaches as bait are awesome, as are minnows. I used a double or even a triple hook for worms, but only single hooks for leaches or minnows.

Don't be afraid to troll other things behind the bottom bouncer. A lot of guys troll stick baits, like the Rapala, but notice that they tend to dive below the weight on conventional bottom bouncers. This means the bait will be dragging bottom, or worse, snagging. This is when the three way swivel comes into it's own. By creating a longer bottom drop leader, the stick bait can be fished behind the bottom bouncer just fine. This can be a real big fish method.

I have fished with a lot of things behind the bottom bouncer, with leaders as short at 18" and as long as 8 feet. There are days when either extreme is best, but most days a 4 foot leader is perfect. Color options are all lake dependent, but if I am starting on a new lake I have never fished, I try to duplicate food already in the lake. In other words, if perch are the prey, use a perch colored blade, with green, brown, and yellow beads. Don't be afraid to use Sassy Shad lures behind a Bottom Bouncer, or Curly Tail grubs, or even the new chatter bait rigs for walleye (Northland baits).

I usually tie my own rigs using the egg loop knot on the hooks, 8 or 10 pound Fluorocarbon leader, beads and or floats as desired, then a quick change blade clevis, attached to my desired spinner blade. The egg loop knot is not required, but it allows some flexibility I like, and it Snell's the hooks in line. The Octopus style hook is king in this presentation.

So many things I would like to say about this, but it all starts to get confusing now. I hope this has helped some.

[Anglinarcher]

The follow up - how would I fish the bottom bouncer?

Let's assume I am going to fish Lake Lunker today. I would first try to find out what the main food prey is. Then I would like to know what the water temperature is, and what time of year is was.

For the sake of this day dream, I will assume the main food is Sculpins, a mottled brown and black version, that the time of year is May, that the water temperature is in the mid to upper 40's.

Because of the time of year, the fish are probably off the spawn, are recovering and ready to hit, but still scattered. This is prime Bottom Bouncer fishing. The fish are probably in 10 to 20 feet of water now, some a lot deeper, but the more aggressive fish will be shallow. I will start with a Colorado blade, # 5, red plastic easy change clevis to look like gills. I would use a copper or bronze blade. I want some bulk to suggest the Sculpin, so I will alternate brown and black corkies, just after I put about three bearing beads for the clevis to rotate on. I am going to use orange because I know that spawning sculpin have an orange tip on the dorsal fin and the Sculpin should be on the spawn right now. Because I am fishing Washington, I cannot use leaches or minnows, so I will use a two hook rig and drag a night crawler for scent and flavor.

We are going to be fishing fairly shallow, so I am going to use 1.5 ounces of weight to start off. I will look for the best structure to fish, and today I find a series of submerged humps and channels at my targeted depth. I set my speed so that the blade is turning, but we don't want to be going too fast. 1/2 to 1.5 mph should be about right to start off. I let the rig down until I start to tick bottom, about once every 10 seconds or so. As I come up to a hump, I will lift my rod or bring in some line. As I come up to a channel I let out line or lower my rod.

I try to pick a depth and keep to it. I expected 10 to 20 feet, so I will try to stay at 15 feet for now. If I don't catch fish, I will go deeper. If I find weeds, I might go shallower, but drop back to Maypole 3/4 once of weight.

I have some floating markers beside me, and I have my eyes glued on my fish finder. When I catch a fish, I toss the marker over the side, but I also note what depth and what type of structure the fish was on. I then work the area, and use the maker as a reference point. I will not pick up the marker until I am sure I have covered the area a few times.

If I see fish on the locater, but no takers, I will change up my offering. If I don't see fish, and I have not caught one, then I may go shallower or deeper, or look for different cover. Perhaps the weed lines will have better fishing today, or maybe it is the chunk rock. If I have caught fish, even though I did not see them, they might be moving away from the boat so I will change to an "S" trolling pattern. They might also be sitting right on the bottom, so if the "S" pattern does not work, well is the bird in the hand worth more then two in the bush?

I have fished bottom bouncers as deep as 80 feet, but I hate it. I have fished bottom bouncers as shallow as 5 feet, but I consider other methods better at that depth. Day in and day out, I prefer to fish my bottom bouncers between 15 and 30 feet, going more or less deep only as the fish require.

Good Luck, and catch some Walleye for me.

[blufin loui]

OK, I know I'm beating a dead horse, but let's try to wrap this up. Let's talk lure/bait presentations.
.

Not beating a dead horse at all. Great info, and thanks for your willingness to take the time and effort to share with those of us that are less experienced. As time passes, I may (will) ask more detailed questions as I get more time on the water. Once again, your assistance is appreciated.