Question for smoked Pink salmon
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Bmastro777
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Question for smoked Pink salmon
So my brine for pinks is a dry brine. I've found it's best to brine them for around 5 hours. With almost half the day gone for brining is it possible for me to....brine 5 hours, dry them for a few hours to create pellicle, then Put them back Into the fridge to be smoked the next day???
Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Just let them dry overnight, no need to refrigerate, seriously, I do it all the time. It won't hurt the finished product, in fact you'll find that the fish will be finished in a shorter amount of time. If you feel you must put them in the fridge, do so before drying and take them out a few hours before smoking.
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Bodofish
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Number 1 rule of food processing is time and temp. Safety says always put your fish in the fridge. I would bet my bottom dollar the food prep surfaces and utensils are not sterilized prior to handling the fish. Food handling safety is extremely important. "Dry Brining" (Salting) will only keep bacteria at bay if the fish is totally covered and then only where the salt is in contact with the fish, until all the moisture is drawn from it. As soon as the salt is rinsed the wet fish meat is a prime spot for a bacteria culture.
One of the reasons for using a brine solution is to infuse the meat with a higher salt and water content making it much harder for any bacteria to get started. The added benefit of the wet brine is a moister finished product.
PS Brine = Salt and water solution. Dry = Salting The two are not the same. Dry Brine is a misnomer at best.
One of the reasons for using a brine solution is to infuse the meat with a higher salt and water content making it much harder for any bacteria to get started. The added benefit of the wet brine is a moister finished product.
PS Brine = Salt and water solution. Dry = Salting The two are not the same. Dry Brine is a misnomer at best.
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Bmastro777
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
thanks for the replies, but I'm still looking for an answer to my question? The problem I'm running into is that there isn't enough time in the day for me to brine, dry, and smoke my fish. And when I leave the fish in the brine overnight...it ends up too salty! I do a 3-1 brown sugar to salt.
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Bodofish
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
That's because no matter how you slice it, it takes more than 24 to do it right. You can put the fish in the smoker anytime but without drying them you will only have smoky baked salmon.Bmastro777 wrote:thanks for the replies, but I'm still looking for an answer to my question? The problem I'm running into is that there isn't enough time in the day for me to brine, dry, and smoke my fish. And when I leave the fish in the brine overnight...it ends up too salty! I do a 3-1 brown sugar to salt.
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Bmastro777
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
what takes more than 24 hours? the whole process or the brine?
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Bodofish
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
The entire process if you're just salting and more like 48 if you're doing a brine.
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Bmastro777
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Ok, got it. Just trying out my new lil' chief and it seems the "dry" salting brine is working better than a wet brine? What do you guys think of the lil' chief? For the pinks, the first thing that worked for me is 3-1 brown sugar to salt "dry" brine followed by a 2-3 hour drying time. Then smoke for 8 hours with 2 pans of applewood.
Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
try cutting the salt down if brining over 5 hours makes it to salty..
I dry brine my fish for 48 hours in the fridge but I do 3 cups brown sugar to half cup salt I add other things in the mix but nothing else with salt or sugar..
my co workers family and neighbors never complained.
I smoke mine in a little chief but 12-14 hours depending how hot or cold it is out side I like my smoked salmon more dry then moist.
I dry brine my fish for 48 hours in the fridge but I do 3 cups brown sugar to half cup salt I add other things in the mix but nothing else with salt or sugar..
my co workers family and neighbors never complained.
I smoke mine in a little chief but 12-14 hours depending how hot or cold it is out side I like my smoked salmon more dry then moist.
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Bmastro777
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Awesome, thanks dicinu!
Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
My word, where to begin? One could go on for hours detailing the science behind the process and all of the misconceptions that have perpetuated themselves over the years. I felt that there needed to be a few points made, and I'll try and keep it brief, so please stay with me. Though my profession may be in electronics, I have a very strong background in microbiology. In the immortal words of Sledge Hammer, "Trust me, I know what I am doing."
For pinks, one can fillet, dry cure/brine for 4 to 6 hours, dry overnight and smoke in the morning/afternoon. These aren't large fish, so the processing times aren't that long and can easily be done over a 24 hour period. I use a 2 to 1 mixture of sugar to salt when dry curing/brining. Keep in mind that the longer you dry the fish, the less time you'll need to complete the smoking process.
When we talk about curing and smoking fish, we are referring to a process that was initially meant to preserve meat for long term storage. The process was used to kill and inhibit bacteria growth, without the aid of refrigeration. Simply refrigerating meat, or any food for that matter will not stop it from spoiling, just slow the process down a bit.
Brining meat inhibits the growth of bacteria that the brine comes into contact with and as the brine diffuses into the muscle tissue, imparts it's flavor. The thing to note is that the brine will diffuse throughout the meat, so if you miss a small spot while dry brining, don't fret, everything will be just fine. The trick here is to gauge how much to apply and how long to leave it on in order to obtain a palatable amount of salt in the finished product.
The drying process is one that seems to confuse people as many folks do not understand what is happening during the process. Most know that a shiny layer, referred to as a pellicle, is the goal, but don't know why it is necessary or what it does. With enough air movement, a layer of dried proteins will be formed on the surface of the meat, this is the pellicle. If you hunt in the back country, you know that forming a pellicle on your dressed out game is key in getting it back home without spoilage. The pellicle acts a barrier which protects the meat under it from bacterial contamination. The key point here is that without water, life cannot exist, so as long as the pellicle stays dry, and your fillets aren’t too thick, you are good to go. Now before you scoff at this remark, keep in mind that we dehydrate all kinds of foods, including meat, using this exact same process. The key to the drying process is maintaining air movement and keeping the humidity in check. Most of the time we don't need to concern ourselves with the humidity as we aren't living in a part of the country where it gets excessive. If you are drying your fish indoors, in an open room, you should have a pellicle formed in a few hours. A fan can be used to increase air movement and will help speed up the process. During the drying process the brine that made its way into the meat is also diffusing throughout the meat, trying to reach equilibrium. This is one of the reasons why I prefer to dry at least overnight, so that the brine and its flavors can make their way to all reaches of the item I’m processing. With adequate airflow and a low enough humidity, one can leave meat out to dry until it eventually becomes… jerky.
Real quick note: Pinks and chum are relatively low in oil and are perfect for making salmon jerky.
Now why do we apply smoke to our fish? Well other than we like how it tastes, smoke, quite simply, kills living organisms. Further, the residue of said smoke readily clings to the pellicle we created during the drying process and forms an even more formidable barrier against bacterial growth. If you really want to make sure your fish is sterile before you eat it, just see to it that the internal temps reach above 160 degrees F during the smoking process. I don’t typically do this as I like my smoked fish to be mildly cured rather than cooked.
Now, one might counter, why then does smoked fish eventually spoil? Because we only process it enough to make it palatable. Add enough salt and/or remove enough moisture and the fish will last much longer, it just won’t be as tasty.
For pinks, one can fillet, dry cure/brine for 4 to 6 hours, dry overnight and smoke in the morning/afternoon. These aren't large fish, so the processing times aren't that long and can easily be done over a 24 hour period. I use a 2 to 1 mixture of sugar to salt when dry curing/brining. Keep in mind that the longer you dry the fish, the less time you'll need to complete the smoking process.
When we talk about curing and smoking fish, we are referring to a process that was initially meant to preserve meat for long term storage. The process was used to kill and inhibit bacteria growth, without the aid of refrigeration. Simply refrigerating meat, or any food for that matter will not stop it from spoiling, just slow the process down a bit.
Brining meat inhibits the growth of bacteria that the brine comes into contact with and as the brine diffuses into the muscle tissue, imparts it's flavor. The thing to note is that the brine will diffuse throughout the meat, so if you miss a small spot while dry brining, don't fret, everything will be just fine. The trick here is to gauge how much to apply and how long to leave it on in order to obtain a palatable amount of salt in the finished product.
The drying process is one that seems to confuse people as many folks do not understand what is happening during the process. Most know that a shiny layer, referred to as a pellicle, is the goal, but don't know why it is necessary or what it does. With enough air movement, a layer of dried proteins will be formed on the surface of the meat, this is the pellicle. If you hunt in the back country, you know that forming a pellicle on your dressed out game is key in getting it back home without spoilage. The pellicle acts a barrier which protects the meat under it from bacterial contamination. The key point here is that without water, life cannot exist, so as long as the pellicle stays dry, and your fillets aren’t too thick, you are good to go. Now before you scoff at this remark, keep in mind that we dehydrate all kinds of foods, including meat, using this exact same process. The key to the drying process is maintaining air movement and keeping the humidity in check. Most of the time we don't need to concern ourselves with the humidity as we aren't living in a part of the country where it gets excessive. If you are drying your fish indoors, in an open room, you should have a pellicle formed in a few hours. A fan can be used to increase air movement and will help speed up the process. During the drying process the brine that made its way into the meat is also diffusing throughout the meat, trying to reach equilibrium. This is one of the reasons why I prefer to dry at least overnight, so that the brine and its flavors can make their way to all reaches of the item I’m processing. With adequate airflow and a low enough humidity, one can leave meat out to dry until it eventually becomes… jerky.
Real quick note: Pinks and chum are relatively low in oil and are perfect for making salmon jerky.
Now why do we apply smoke to our fish? Well other than we like how it tastes, smoke, quite simply, kills living organisms. Further, the residue of said smoke readily clings to the pellicle we created during the drying process and forms an even more formidable barrier against bacterial growth. If you really want to make sure your fish is sterile before you eat it, just see to it that the internal temps reach above 160 degrees F during the smoking process. I don’t typically do this as I like my smoked fish to be mildly cured rather than cooked.
Now, one might counter, why then does smoked fish eventually spoil? Because we only process it enough to make it palatable. Add enough salt and/or remove enough moisture and the fish will last much longer, it just won’t be as tasty.
Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Dry it out too much, smoke it a bunch and it turns to jerky. We love jerky! It can live in the glove compartment for days. Because of the process. I'm drying fish as we speak getting ready for the smoke.
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goodtimesfishing
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Excellent write up gman! Was just explaining (although not as well as you did) to my father in law last night as I was rinsing my fish. Dried over night and put in smoker at 9 this morning and is smoking as I write. Great detail in your writing thanks. 
Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Against my better judgement, here is my brine and process. I've left the brine on for over 24 hours without the end product tasting too salty.
Dry "brine":
1 cup Morton's Sugar Cure (has 1.5% sodium nitrate, and this will keep bacteria at bay for long term storage)
2 lb bag dark brown sugar
10 teaspoons garlic powder
I slice "candy bar" slices into each fillet. About 1" apart down the fillet. Then I slice each fillet in half to end up with 2 pieces per fillet.
I use a tall stock pot and layer the fillets (skin to skin, flesh to flesh) covering each layer with the dry brine. Put the lid on the pot, stick it in the fridge, and I usually let it sit overnight. The next day it will be a liquid slurry around the fish.
Take the fillets out, give just enough of a rinse to wash off any clumps of brine, and lay them out on a tray with paper towels underneath. Pat the flesh dry with paper towels. Put back in the fridge (personal preference) and let them sit for at least 3 hours, but longer won't hurt anything. They will still develop the glaze in the fridge. When ready to smoke, let them sit at room temp for at least 30 minutes before smoking.
Smoke like you normally would. This has been a winner for me. End product is not too salty.
This is an extra step I do...again, personal preference. I vacuum seal the individual pieces, and once sealed I stick them in the oven at 170 for 30-45 minutes. This heats them in their own oils, distributing the flavor, and also kills off any remaining bacteria that may be lingering. As long as that vacuum bag stays sealed, the salt / sodium nitrate will keep bacteria at bay (if there is any). The vacuum bags I use are BPA free and aren't actual plastic. They can withstand temps of up to 200...so 170 is totally fine for the oven part of the process. The end product isn't too dry either.
My friends and family all rave about it. One of my co-workers recently told me it's some of the best he's ever had, even compared to the "high end" commercial products sold in stores.
There ya go! Just not gonna give out my smoking process (I don't use a traditional smoker) and the 4 different types of hardwood I use (well, ok....1 is Alder of course)! LOL
Dry "brine":
1 cup Morton's Sugar Cure (has 1.5% sodium nitrate, and this will keep bacteria at bay for long term storage)
2 lb bag dark brown sugar
10 teaspoons garlic powder
I slice "candy bar" slices into each fillet. About 1" apart down the fillet. Then I slice each fillet in half to end up with 2 pieces per fillet.
I use a tall stock pot and layer the fillets (skin to skin, flesh to flesh) covering each layer with the dry brine. Put the lid on the pot, stick it in the fridge, and I usually let it sit overnight. The next day it will be a liquid slurry around the fish.
Take the fillets out, give just enough of a rinse to wash off any clumps of brine, and lay them out on a tray with paper towels underneath. Pat the flesh dry with paper towels. Put back in the fridge (personal preference) and let them sit for at least 3 hours, but longer won't hurt anything. They will still develop the glaze in the fridge. When ready to smoke, let them sit at room temp for at least 30 minutes before smoking.
Smoke like you normally would. This has been a winner for me. End product is not too salty.
This is an extra step I do...again, personal preference. I vacuum seal the individual pieces, and once sealed I stick them in the oven at 170 for 30-45 minutes. This heats them in their own oils, distributing the flavor, and also kills off any remaining bacteria that may be lingering. As long as that vacuum bag stays sealed, the salt / sodium nitrate will keep bacteria at bay (if there is any). The vacuum bags I use are BPA free and aren't actual plastic. They can withstand temps of up to 200...so 170 is totally fine for the oven part of the process. The end product isn't too dry either.
My friends and family all rave about it. One of my co-workers recently told me it's some of the best he's ever had, even compared to the "high end" commercial products sold in stores.
There ya go! Just not gonna give out my smoking process (I don't use a traditional smoker) and the 4 different types of hardwood I use (well, ok....1 is Alder of course)! LOL
Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Thanks much for the write-up! mizmm!
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Bodofish
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
Good Job G! All valid good info. The handling of the fish along with the process is at least as important as salt on the meat and circulating air and if you come from a microbiology back ground there is no disputing the time a temp rule. Regardless of how much salt and sugar is sprinkled on the top (dry brining, oxymoron, does not adequately permeate the meat in 12 or less hours to provide anti bacterial protection, it is only seasoning the outer layer), when it's rinsed off, you have bare uncured meat until the pellicle is formed and if it sits out at 65 to 75 degrees, 7 to 12 hours is plenty of time to start a culture. Many of the little bugs can and will produce poisons so just killing them off with temp or drying is not enough. Granted you would need to have the moons aligned for a problem to occur but if it did, you could have some very sick people on your hands. I personally don't think it's worth the risk so I follow the good handling guidelines of always putting fresh meat in the fridge when not actively working on it and keeping the temp as close to freezing as possible. I too have been heavily into processing and food science. About 5 years of keeping my Processors Cert alive for operating a cannery or any other food processing plant in AK. It entails a minimum of two quarters per year of Food Science and Technology classes at the University level.
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Bodofish
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
PS: Sodium Nitrate is a color enhancer or preserver as well as flavor. Not enough of it in your rub to kill anything.
Build a man a fire and he's warm for the night. Light a man on fire and he's warm the rest of his life!
Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
I have used a lil chief for years, moved up to a big chief for more room. I like them for fish, jerky and sausage.Bmastro777 wrote:What do you guys think of the lil' chief?
I now have a pellet grill I am not in love with and may go back to a gas fired drum type smoker for BBQ type smoking. I have not tried the pellet grill for fish, it may be worth a shot.
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goodtimesfishing
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Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
I find it funny how people think a dry brine will not penetrate the fish??? for those who have not used a dry brine....it is only a dry brine for maybe the first half hour and then your fish is completely covered with liquid. Sounds like the people against dry brine have not used a dry brine.
Re: Question for smoked Pink salmon
I'm sure you have much more experience than I do, and I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but I can share this with you...my career is in chemical sales across all industries, food obviously being one of them. Morton is one of my direct suppliers and I've spoken with my rep about their sugar cure product. He said it is specifically formulated for curing meats such as ham, fish, game...pretty much meat in general. He said between the salt content, and the sodium nitrate, and PROPER PREPARATION AND STORAGE (I totally agree that's a huge part of the equation), the cure will inhibit bacteria growth in a sealed and sterilized package. Which is why I do the extra step of placing the sealed packs in the oven at 170 for an extra 30-45 minutes. Then it's directly to the fridge if it's going to be eaten fairly soon, or the chest freezer for long term storage.Bodofish wrote:PS: Sodium Nitrate is a color enhancer or preserver as well as flavor. Not enough of it in your rub to kill anything.