Shady136
5/2/2010 5:36:00 PMRaffens, good of you to politely say something. While I recognize the sel. gear rules are in place, I think perhaps there is cause for them to be re-written. At other lakes I consistently use lures with a little bit of bait/scent to make them more appealing. Fish caught this way are just as easy to release as those caught with the lure alone. This seems especially true if the lure is single hook and even more especially if it is single and barbless. It doesn't make much sense to me to have the rule written the way it is. Due to the ease of release, in my opinion, a scented/baited lure should be allowed in these lakes.
willial13
5/2/2010 8:31:00 PMShady136, I hope you can appreciate that guys trying to fool trout without scents, baits and pop gear are not specifically interested in numbers. Many lakes in England allow only dry flies, fishing nymphs is considered too easy. That being said, I know you pay your license fees like everyone else, but the guys who pushed for restricted gear regulations pay as well, and they want a few lakes where artificials without any help are the rule. If kids start fishing power bait or scents, it not only is more effective, (and makes fishing legally more difficult) it contradicts the very reason the restrictive regs were written in the first place. The number of restricted lakes is small comparitively, let the crazy guys who wave wands have a couple of places to fish in solitude for the type of fish that are impossible to find in catch and take waters (I'm not talkin' about horrific genetically altered species like those Rufus Woods abominations, but beautiful large bows and browns).
Shady136
5/2/2010 10:09:00 PMHey, I'm a fly fisherman at heart. But if a guy can chunk some gear out there, hook up, fight and release a fish safely, there won't be any problem catching that same fish later on with a fly. I occasionally toss a spinner to a trout and have a much better time if I can tip it with a touch of worm. Besides, we both know that fish will take a fly before most artificial lures. And realistically, you probably aren't even going to be fishing the same patch of water as an spin fisherman at Medical are you? You'll be casting out to the reed beds or paddling around looking for the fish, the guy with the spinner will be on shore casting to limited open water. I don't really understand why the careful spin fisherman can't go out and have a great day catching and releasing trout on the same water as a conservative fly-fisherman who is also having a great time catching and releasing fish..? Now, this doesn't mean I think that in those restricted lakes that folks should be able to toss a bobber and worm rig or a hunk of power bait with which to gut-hook and therefore kill a trout. But if the fish comes off of the spinner unharmed...why the restriction? We're still talking about conservative, safe fishing. We're still talking barbless, still single hook, but it seems that the no bait/no scent restriction on the lures is a little too cautious to me. I think they did it to discourage the callous, take-home-or-kill-my-limit bait fisherman...but it seems to overcorrect a little bit to the other side of the spectrum is all. It's just my opinion that WDFW ought to look at rethinking that section of the rulebook.
OR perhaps us dry-fly fisherman could petition for even more selective gear. No sinking line, no bead-heads, no indicators, only natural floatant etc. ;)
OR perhaps us dry-fly fisherman could petition for even more selective gear. No sinking line, no bead-heads, no indicators, only natural floatant etc. ;)
raffensg64
5/2/2010 11:03:00 PMWell said, willial13! Shady 136, I respect your opinion but do not see how allowing a bit of scent or worm is going to do this law any good. You and I both know that most people aren't going to fish the way you describe.......hooks will get swallowed, fish will be improperly handled and released, and the fishery will rapidly decline. What I saw today was the exception....normally those fish are poached and poached hard. If you give people an inch then they'll sure as hell take a mile! Out will come the barbed hooks, crawlers, marshmallows, power bait, salmon eggs, etc. in vastly greater numbers than I already see scattered along the cliffs on a daily basis. Enforcement is a nightmare already, trust me, I live there! Then you have to try to get the city of Medical Lake on board....did you know the lake is jointly administered? We had a similar conversation to this one a couple of years ago. In that thread, Marc Martin actually took the time to do the math, comparing everyday put-and-take lake percentages against "fly fishing only" and "selective regulations" lakes. In the end, he found that "fly fishing" and "selective regs" lake comprise a ridiculously low percentage of Washington lakes, something like well under 3% if memory serves! So why mess with it? Fish can be easily caught without scents and baits....you know that already! Also, you mentioned that you don't understand why spin fishermen can't go out and have a great day of catching and releasing. Sure they can....the regs allow that already! Of course on Medical it would have to be a single, barbless hook. But your idea of scents and baits would limit them to 5 trout total (statewide) or 2 total (Medical if your plan was in effect), whether kept or released. As soon as bait is used the rules change immediately and drastically. This is per the regulations! What burns my hide is that West Medical is only a mile away. It's a classic put-and-take lake where folks can use anything short of dynamite!
Motor1
5/2/2010 11:14:00 PMRaffensg64
Glad someone is again pointing out that there are special rules on this lake. They could change this from a selective gear lake to a fly fishing only lake. Maybe that is the what should be done. I don't think it would make any difference, however, as there will still be people fishing with bait or scented lures. The real point is that people do not pay attention to the rules or they simply ignore them. I've seen too many people fishing illegally on this great piece of water. There are many lakes in the general area that people can fish and take home their limits and not worry about any specific regs other than the general state regs. .
Glad someone is again pointing out that there are special rules on this lake. They could change this from a selective gear lake to a fly fishing only lake. Maybe that is the what should be done. I don't think it would make any difference, however, as there will still be people fishing with bait or scented lures. The real point is that people do not pay attention to the rules or they simply ignore them. I've seen too many people fishing illegally on this great piece of water. There are many lakes in the general area that people can fish and take home their limits and not worry about any specific regs other than the general state regs. .
Shady136
5/3/2010 1:34:00 AMTruly enough, it seems there are some valid points here. Certainly we want to practice the rules as they lay and encourage others to do the same. And surely enough there is cause to have special regulation to protect our fisheries from that rampant and wasteful creature which populates too many of our lakes (the one that is rippin' guts merely to achieve a limit of fish which they only even partially want).
I guess my main point was that adding bait or scent to an artificial lure causes no additional harm to the fish and still allows for quick and painless catch and release. If this is the case, why shouldn't I be able to catch and release all day long in this way? If I was using an artificial lure (SBH) I could catch and release all day long right? So why does tipping that same lure with a worm bit change a thing? The fish are caught the same and released the same...all that was added was a scent trail. The fishery is being protected, the fish are released unharmed... and therefore the WDFW should review their limitations on this style of fishing. I really don't think this is an unreasonable opinion to have.
And yes, some people will always take advantage of the rules. BUT unless we shut down fishing entirely, we are always 'giving an inch'.
At any rate...my intention was not to pick a fight, but rather to point out a regulation which doesn't make sense to me.
I guess my main point was that adding bait or scent to an artificial lure causes no additional harm to the fish and still allows for quick and painless catch and release. If this is the case, why shouldn't I be able to catch and release all day long in this way? If I was using an artificial lure (SBH) I could catch and release all day long right? So why does tipping that same lure with a worm bit change a thing? The fish are caught the same and released the same...all that was added was a scent trail. The fishery is being protected, the fish are released unharmed... and therefore the WDFW should review their limitations on this style of fishing. I really don't think this is an unreasonable opinion to have.
And yes, some people will always take advantage of the rules. BUT unless we shut down fishing entirely, we are always 'giving an inch'.
At any rate...my intention was not to pick a fight, but rather to point out a regulation which doesn't make sense to me.
raffensg64
5/3/2010 7:19:00 AMNo fight was picked, Shady136......trust me, I've been in some scuffles before reference this lake! What we've done so far has been civil. and educational. While the regulation does not make sense to you, it makes perfect sense to many others. While you may believe your idea has merit, many others would disagree. I have seen firsthand, on several lakes, the magnificent fisheries that develop when a lake is under "selective regulations". While this many not be the answer you're looking for, you are prohibited from catching and releasing all day with bait-tipped/scented spinner because the existing law specifically prohibits it. You could try to petition the WDFW to get that changed but you'd be pissing in the wind. Bait-caught trout mortality rates would not support the change, nor would the WDFW, biologists and the angling community. Once again, I have to ask the question? Why the bait and/or scents anyways? They're not necessary, IMO. Up until about 10 years ago I was a hardware guy. I never baited/scented my spinners and lures and had great success. For the last 10 or so I've used flies exclusively for trout and have seen my catch rates rise astronomically.
Shady136
5/3/2010 9:09:00 AMI love the selective gear rules. Amber lake is a pretty great example of the sort of lake you are talking about. It's just that adding a bit of worm/scent to my artificial lure does not harm the fish (it does not swallow it, it still gets hooked in the lip) any more than the current selective gear. Therefore I think WDFW should reconsider their position on unscented lures.
When fly fishing you are looking for particular areas where the fish are. When you are on the shore casting a spinner, you have to make the fish come to you. That's why so many spinners have flasher devices/ noise devices. Another effective way to attract a fish is to create a scent trail in the water which leads to your lure. Since adding that scent does nothing beyond what the current gear allows to harm the fish or destroy a selective gear fishery (still talking C and R and single, barbless) I think the WDFW should reconsider it as part of selective gear. Bait caught trout swallow the hook. Trout caught on an artificial lure do not...regardless of the worm tip or scent they just don't swallow it.
And yes, I completely agree with you, trout seem much more inclined to strike a fly than any other lure I've ever worked with. I've had far, far more success fly fishing than any other method (besides, it's more fun anyways). However, at a lake like Medical, in order to do it properly I have to suit up and get out on the water in a PWC of some type. I had to get rid of my truck and can't haul my little boat around anymore. I paid for a license, I still want to fish, I live in Medical Lake. However, at the current time I just don't have the means to properly fish that body of water with flies. So I'm confined to the shore right now. What this means is that I either have to go to a worse lake, with ten inch stocker trout that don't even fight when you hook them and put up with people chugging their keystone, smoking doobies, listening to loud music from their trucks, hooking fish after fish, kicking the fish back in the water despite a mortal wound etc. etc. etc., or I have to limit myself to catching two quick little trout and ending my day. I'd like to fish longer but since I used a bit of scent on my lure the WDFW won't let me...but not because it would hurt the fish or the fishery. Just because.
When fly fishing you are looking for particular areas where the fish are. When you are on the shore casting a spinner, you have to make the fish come to you. That's why so many spinners have flasher devices/ noise devices. Another effective way to attract a fish is to create a scent trail in the water which leads to your lure. Since adding that scent does nothing beyond what the current gear allows to harm the fish or destroy a selective gear fishery (still talking C and R and single, barbless) I think the WDFW should reconsider it as part of selective gear. Bait caught trout swallow the hook. Trout caught on an artificial lure do not...regardless of the worm tip or scent they just don't swallow it.
And yes, I completely agree with you, trout seem much more inclined to strike a fly than any other lure I've ever worked with. I've had far, far more success fly fishing than any other method (besides, it's more fun anyways). However, at a lake like Medical, in order to do it properly I have to suit up and get out on the water in a PWC of some type. I had to get rid of my truck and can't haul my little boat around anymore. I paid for a license, I still want to fish, I live in Medical Lake. However, at the current time I just don't have the means to properly fish that body of water with flies. So I'm confined to the shore right now. What this means is that I either have to go to a worse lake, with ten inch stocker trout that don't even fight when you hook them and put up with people chugging their keystone, smoking doobies, listening to loud music from their trucks, hooking fish after fish, kicking the fish back in the water despite a mortal wound etc. etc. etc., or I have to limit myself to catching two quick little trout and ending my day. I'd like to fish longer but since I used a bit of scent on my lure the WDFW won't let me...but not because it would hurt the fish or the fishery. Just because.
Xwisconyfisherman
5/3/2010 10:47:00 AMAs a new fly fisher and relatively new to the state I think I have an interesting point on this debate. If you want to fish a selective gear only lake effectively you have to adapt your fishing adapt. I for one had only touched a fly rod 3 or 4 times before moving to this state. In Wisconsin I considered myself a well rounded fishermen, certain conditions (pre/post spawn, weather,water temp,extra) requiring jigging,cranking,trolling,throwing out slip bobbers extra... After throwing modified spinners and watching everyone catch at least 5 to my 1 on a fly rod I realized i needed to adapt my technique. However now that the conditions have changed again (say i want to catch trout in a selective gear lake) I have adapted again and went out and bought a fly rod and with some coaching (thanks guys) I can go out on a selective gear lake and catch fish. Now when I first moved to the state I didnt really understand these rules but after fishing different bodies of water and using different techniques to catch trout fly fishing is truly the ultimate way to catch and release a trout safely. I can honestly say that every fish i've caught on a fly has been hooked right on the tip of the mouth as opposed to fishing with say a wedding ring tipped with a worm I've had trout swallow the hook even while trolling at high speeds. Now the only minor problem I have with the selective gear rule is that I wish it would allow you to fish for species other then trout a little easier. If your are say bass fishing in thick vegetation on a selective gear lake it would be nice to use a good old fashioned artificial weed less worm, however you cant because they have 3 single hooks spaced out a few inches apart and most sold in sporting good stores are scented or flipping a big jig head with a gulp minnow. However some exceptions to the rule would be way to hard to enforce and like raffensg said if you give an inch certain people will take a country mile. So while everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion on the subject if you want to catch fish in these waters and follow the regulations I say adapt to the challenge and learn a new technique and sport.
Shady136
5/3/2010 12:52:00 PMI think you are missing the point of what I have said. I can fish with an artificial lure on a selective gear lake all day long granted that it has a single barbless hook. I can catch and release as many fish as I want that way. But the moment I put a drop of scent on that same lure I am suddenly limited to C& R 2 fish (Medical lake being the example here)? That's just dumb. The lure didn't change, no additional harm is being caused to the fish....with an artificial spinner all I am doing is helping that trout find my lure in open water.
The change in the rule would not be any harder to enforce than it is now. Those fishing with bait and a hook, bobber and worm etc are breaking the rule, anyone with a single, barbless hook on any artificial lure is not.
I love fly fishing and do it as often as I can. But for the lake in the town where I live I can't fish it properly with flies without a boat. So I am confined to fish said lake from the shore...which probably means spinners. Which leads us here. If that isn't adaptability I don't know what is.
The change in the rule would not be any harder to enforce than it is now. Those fishing with bait and a hook, bobber and worm etc are breaking the rule, anyone with a single, barbless hook on any artificial lure is not.
I love fly fishing and do it as often as I can. But for the lake in the town where I live I can't fish it properly with flies without a boat. So I am confined to fish said lake from the shore...which probably means spinners. Which leads us here. If that isn't adaptability I don't know what is.
Shady136
5/3/2010 1:59:00 PMThey had a similar debate in CO not long ago. Conclusion: scented lures are A-OK and do not significantly increase fish mortality rates. They were permitted for use on even most selective gear waters in 2008.
vrispiel58
5/5/2010 6:13:00 PMThanks to ALL of you, despite your difference of opinions, for a calm, thoughtful and sane debate. Too often it breaks down to name-calling and juvenile behavior here on the i-net. NICE WORK PEOPLE. Personally, i think Medical Lake should be fly-fishing only, there are so many catch and kill lakes nearby for the average joe. BTW, the WDFW poaching hotline is programmed into my cell phone and has been used 3 times so far this short season. THERES NO EXCUSE, READ THE RULES!!!!!!!!!!
vrispiel58
5/5/2010 6:22:00 PMHey Shady, here's an alternate technique to your spinners,, tie a Chironomid nymph under a slip bobber, retrieve it DEAD SLOW, properly weighted you can cover a ton of water from the shore, and these patterns are deadly for catching fish. P.S. Crimp the barb. Just sayin...................