Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

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toxicavengr
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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by toxicavengr » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:55 pm

My friends, if I may say that,

I will have to bow out of this conversation for now as I am going to seek legal advice before I comment further.I have heard this argument over and over. I am not a real estate attorney and this is way over my head. I do know how I feel about this but my feelings are not legal precedent. LOL
I do agree to disagree on some points mentioned here but I am whole heartedly in favor of protecting my rights as a fisherman and as a land owner.....
I am literally caught in the middle of this but I can see points on both sides.

I do agree that the spirit of the law grants the right to recreate on our rivers and I enjoy that freedom every chance I get but this is a slippery slope imo and we should tread lightly here... if you were in my position you might agree this is a difficult problem to resolve concerning both sides... when your home is involved you tend to look at things a little differently..... I mean I can always catch fish somewhere else. [thumbup]

Peace Guys..... good conversation!

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by Gonefishing » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:08 pm

Not to be a pain in the butt but here we go. My brother and I inherited some river property and I asked a lawyer friend if in owning the property meant that we also owned the waterway. The answer came back in a simple no you don't. He used the example of a sidewalk and how you can't limit people from walking that sidewalk. I tried to counter saying but that is different and the sidewalk could be considered public access area even if the property the sidewalk was on was my property but the street is public. He basically said same difference in the case of the waterway.

Anyways two interesting links. 1 is a Seattle University Law Review: http://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/ ... ntext=sulr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Which I haven't read all of it yet.

The second is the state of Oregon. Why Washington State hasn't released such a brochure.....
http://www.oregon.gov/dsl/NAV/docs/nav_brochure.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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natetreat
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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by natetreat » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:52 pm

Thanks for those links Gonefishing, those are really helpful.

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toxicavengr
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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by toxicavengr » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:46 am

Interesting read!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1702610/posts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by jd39 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:15 am

Springer Jerry wrote:
jonb wrote:I agree with nate treat as far as legalaties go, and this is common knowledge in other parts of the country, and ill take it a step further and say that i think it is wrong to try to keep people off the rivers or lakes because you own property there...the idea of a private lake or river is disgusting to me. I dont get why people think its ok to hoard such a precious resource all for themselves, how greedy....i understand wanting a view of the river at your house, no problem there. but to own it, and close access to it is an awful selfish thing to do..
How is owning private property on a lake or river disgusting and greedy? Feeling entitled to others belongings is disgusting to me. Private landowners do not trash their property out like the public does. Now that's disgusting also.
Won't speak for jonb but to me it's disgusting if/when they try to use their land ownership to harass and deny use of a public resource, assuming it was accessed through public property. Trespassing on private land to access it is a different matter and I'd side with landowners on that but accessed through legal means they should go pound sand.
My property rights were violated last night, still wouldn't have pulled my gun if I had caught them.
The litter is disgusting, takes a real selfish lowlife to enjoy fishing a river then S all over it for others.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by Amx » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:19 am

Springer Jerry wrote:
How is owning private property on a lake or river disgusting and greedy? Feeling entitled to others belongings is disgusting to me. Private landowners do not trash their property out like the public does. Now that's disgusting also.[/quote]Some lake shore owners do. You should see all the junk in the water around some docks, chairs in the water, beer cans and bottles, other junk, not to mention some junk on land also. And idiots hitting golf balls into the lake. You'd think water shoreline owners would be more environmentally aware.
Tom.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by natetreat » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:34 am

That's interesting, and unfortunate in that the ruling is contrary to a boatload of precedent that says otherwise. I'm pretty certain that it's under appeal, I'm looking into it. From what I can gather at the moment, it applies to Lousianna, not nationwide, but certainly has the ability to be extended to the rest of the states.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by gfakkema » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:09 pm

Okay Nate, I’ll bite. Here are some excerpts from the link provided above by Gonefishing.
The state has the right to use, regulate, and control public trust rivers as common highways for commerce, trade, and intercourse. In contrast, where a river is classified as not navigable-in-fact, riparian property owners enjoy fee-simple ownership of the riverbed to the midpoint of the channel.
So, we can see that there are two types of rivers/waters. The first would be “navigable-in-fact” and the other would be considered “non navigable-in-fact”. Do we know for sure if the Samish is considered either one of these? No. We do not. The only data that I could find states that it is navigable up to 4 miles upstream of the mouth. As I stated previously, the property in question is more than 4 miles upstream of the mouth.
Washington’s laws of public trust and navigability, which were established more than one hundred years ago, are inadequate for resolving these modern conflicts.
According to the above statement, the laws that we currently have on the books are not adequate to resolve these conflicts. What this means is that we need more clearly defined laws because the ones that we currently have do not (and will not) solve these land dispute issues. The only way that we can be sure is going to be future court cases.
Subsequently, the Court provided a test for distinguishing those rivers that passed to the states and those that remain in private hands. In The Daniel Ball, the Court held that all rivers that are navigable-in-fact are public rivers, and thus are owned by the states. Rivers are navigable-in-fact when “they are used, or are susceptible of being used, in their ordinary condition, as highways for commerce, over which trade and travel are or may be conducted in the customary modes of trade and travel on the water.” Furthermore, a waterway is navigable within the meaning of acts of Congress only when the waterway “form[s] in [its] ordinary condition by [itself], or by uniting with other waters, a continued highway over which commerce is or may be carried on with other States or foreign countries in the customary modes in which such commerce is conducted by water”
The Supreme Court has liberally defined the concept of navigability-in-fact by adopting a test that measures capacity for commercial use. A river becomes a public highway “if it be capable in its natural state of being used for purposes of commerce, no matter in what mode the commerce may be conducted.” In The Montello, the Court held that a stream or river is navigable-in-fact when it is “generally and commonly useful to some purpose of trade or agriculture.” However, the Court was unwilling to stretch the rule to include “every small creek in which a fishing skiff or gunning canoe can be made to float in high water.” Despite the Court’s apparent distinction based on the type of boat used, the concept of navigability is actually less concerned with the type of boats used or the presence of occasional difficulties, such as logjams, rapids, and waterfalls. Instead, the navigability-for-title test focuses on the question of whether the stream, in its natural and ordinary condition, affords a channel for useful commerce. In other words, a river’s capacity for commercial use determines whether the river is navigable.
The navigability-for-title test is a backwards looking test that has the potential to create disparate classifications of rivers with regard to recreational boating. To determine whether a river is navigable, courts will look at the condition of the waterway at the time of statehood, meaning that the river was capable of supporting commercial use.
The above statement is a fairly important one. To begin, we should look at the sentence regarding boat size. The concept of navigability is actually less concerned with the type of boats used or the presence of occasional difficulties. Instead, the navigablility-for-title test focuses on the question of whether the stream in its natural and ordinary condition, affords a channel for useful commerce. So, the real question becomes how they define the river in its natural condition. With the erection of dikes pre and post statehood, how are the courts going to decide what is “natural”. Mostly, the courts will look at the capacity of the river when it became a state. It is not hard to understand that the river was not always a river at all, but more of a delta. One cannot use how the river appears today, but rather the way it appeared and was used pre-statehood. With the advent of dikes and farmland, it is not hard to see that the river is not currently in its “natural” state.
After determining that the river was capable of supporting commerce at the time of statehood, courts generally also require that the type of commerce that the river could have supported be a “legitimate” form of commerce. This concept is illustrated by the fact that in The Montello, the Supreme Court was unwilling to classify as navigable any small stream that could float a gunning canoe or raft at high tide on the ground that such a stream could not support a legitimate form of commerce. Nonetheless, federal courts deciding cases in states that obtained statehood in the nineteenth century, such as Washington, almost uniformly refused to hold that recreational use alone is sufficient to qualify a river as navigable-in-fact.
Hmm, according to the Supreme Court, recreational use alone is not sufficient to qualify a river as navigable-in-fact. Based on this sentence and others above, one must prove that the river was capable of supporting (legitimate) commerce at the time of statehood AND that the ability to float a gunning canoe or raft at high tide does not qualify the river as navigable-in-fact.
Instead, the classification of navigable-in-fact seems to depend on the historical and social context that existed at the time of statehood.
An individual claiming a right of access has the burden of proving that the stream is navigable-in-fact.
This is quite important. It is not the land owners responsibility to prove that the stream is not navigable, the burden of proof lies on the individual claiming right of access. This tells me that the land owner is correct in assuming that he owns the property to the middle line of the river UNTIL AN INDIVIDUAL HAS PROVED THAT THEY HAVE RIGHT OF ACCESS. Of course, since there is no already defined guide that says that the Samish is navigable, one must go to court to PROVE that the river is in fact navigable.
Some Washington courts have not, however, consistently applied the capacity for valuable floatage test. Instead, they have determined that certain flows of water are not navigable by relying upon an “actual use” test rather than a “capacity-for-use” test. In Griffith v. Holman, the Washington Supreme court denied recreational access to the Little Spokane River. The river averaged forty feet wide and four feet deep at high water, but the court classified the river as non-navigable because it had only been “used to a limited extent for the purposes of pleasure by the running of rowboats up and down said river by persons desiring to fish for pleasure.” The court relied on the Little Spokane’s actual use, rather than its capacity for useful (commercial) navigation.
So, people used the river for recreation for decades for recreation, but the court ruled that this is not alone a condition satisfactory of “navigable”. The Samish is/was not historically used for “legitimate” commerce that I have found. The one thing that the Samish does have going for it is a history of hatcheries and angling. According to the above ruling though, recreational activity alone does not give the public right of access.
In Griffith v. Holman, the court erroneously applied the capacity-for-use test established in Monroe Mill Co. and held that prior use by recreational watercraft was insufficient to create a public right of access to a non navigable-for-title stream.
Again, just because you can float a raft or canoe down the river, it still may not necessarily mean that the public has right of access.
The rationale in Monroe, Watkins and other early stream access cases was predicated upon an antiquated definition of “commerce.” Because the Griffith court was unwilling to endow a right of access upon streams floatable by recreational boats, it follows that the Griffith court was unable to conceive of recreation as a commercial activity.
However, the capacity for “valuable commercial floatage” test has been interpreted unrealistically; thus, recreational access is still limited in Washington.
From the link that you supplied Nate:
Note that this is a general discussion, and is not a substitute for legal counsel on a specific river issue! State law in a particular state may modify some of the following.
So, basically Nate, we are both right, and both wrong. The main problem lies in the fact that the laws are so vague and there are many precedents that could reaffirm both of our positions. My biggest problem with the whole issue is that until there is a court case that decides whether the river is navigable or not, it will be next to impossible for either one of us to determine if the river is in public or private domain.
I am all for having access to and using waters that have been listed “navigable”. The problem is that this particular case lies in the realm of the unknown. I would hate to see anglers using the information that you gave to have a sense of entitlement to waters that may or may not be considered public. Someday (with the work of people like you Nate), we will have a list of waters that are public (i.e. Oregon) or a ruling that declares almost all waterways public (i.e. Montana). Until then though, I don’t think that it is right to declare that any and all waters are public and that we have access rights when you don’t know with certainty that they are in fact navigable in the eyes of the courts.
Founding member of P.I.N.K. (Pink Idiots Need Killing), for the prevention of IDIOT pink salmon "anglers" everywhere!

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by natetreat » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:28 pm

Yes, the Samish may not be navigable by the states test, but it sure as hell is by the federal test. That's one of the problems in particular with the Samish, but not all of the other rivers that are having these problems. Take a for instance, the Nisqually and the campground chasing folks out. That is an area that needs to have these flyers handed out to everyone. The naselle has come up in discussions, there is no doubt that that river was used for commerce at the time of statehood, therefore even by the states definition of navigable, it's open.

Furthermore, the guy on the Samish needs to be in jail, because he's shooting at people who may or may not be trespassing, but are sure as hell unarmed and not threatening him.

From the information that I'm getting, the federal SHOULD take precedence over state law, and has been ignored or misinterpreted by a bunch of folks. Regardless, you'd be hard pressed to find a river on the west side of the mountains that wasn't used for the purpose of commerce, that's how people got around.

The ideal situation is not some test case, but that the local areas recognize federal law and just stop ticketing people for trespassing and tell land owners that they need to stop harassing anglers. Because if the Samish isn't navigable, then they need to close the river to fishing, because the entire thing is private. Same with other rivers in the state. And we have no where to fish.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by toxicavengr » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:11 pm

natetreat wrote:That's interesting, and unfortunate in that the ruling is contrary to a boatload of precedent that says otherwise. I'm pretty certain that it's under appeal, I'm looking into it. From what I can gather at the moment, it applies to Lousianna, not nationwide, but certainly has the ability to be extended to the rest of the states.
Could you cite some of your sources to the "boatload of precedence" for me? I would be interested in reading through those cases/articles, including where navigability goes all the way to headwaters. I cannot find that specific definition anywhere.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by spoonman » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:06 am

...I like fishing....

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by natetreat » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:36 am

gfakkema -

Upon further research I have found that yes, the Samish was used for purposes of commerce, way upstream from the areas we're talking about. I'm going to get more, but this supreme court case from 1904 directly references using the river to float logs for timber, the state has achieved statehood in 1889, it is logical to assume that they were floating logs on it before then.

http://courts.mrsc.org/mc/courts/zwashr ... rt0662.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This means, even by the more stringent state definition of navigability, that the waters and beds of the Samish river posses an easement allowing public access, therefore everything that I have said previously applies to it.

Toxicavenger - a good place to start is the foot notes provided on the poster. Google each case and read it. Links are also provided on the NOR website to many of these sources. As for navigable to the headwaters like I said before, no where does it mention that, it's just implied by the ability of a kayak to float these stretches in the upper most reaches of the rivers, and the practice of using these streams to float logs off the mountainside. The nature of the headwaters of many of our rivers is such that they are navigable all the way up to the glacier by a federal standard. Google kayaking the "Upper Upper Cispus Video" to see how awesome it is to kayak headwaters.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by natetreat » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:59 am

Also relevant to your request that a court designate the Samish river as navigable is this excerpt fromt eh judgement - "there was any abuse or misuse in the present case. The stream in
question is undoubtedly navigable for floating logs for a part of
the year, and during that time the appellant, as well as others,
may use it for that purpose. "

The supreme court of Washington designated the river as "navigable" right there, and "Undoubtedly" so. Keep in mind that it is not a requirement that the river be capable of driving logs throughout all seasons. It still qualifies as navigable for title purposes. But a normally dry creek bed or "wash" that is only temporarily navigable during extreme weather does not qualify. (If it's normally dry because of upstream dams, then it does qualify. The legal test is based on the river's natural condition.)

Even though the federal test SHOULD trump the state test of navigability, that is a battle that does not need to be fought in securing our rights on the Samish river, because it has historically been used for commerce, and has in fact been confirmed as navigable by the state supreme court. Therefore, there exists a public easement to use the river and it's bed.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by natetreat » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:32 pm

SJ you're missing the point. It doesn't matter, those laws are THE law that dictates whether a river is "navigable". If it is in fact "navigable" it is held in trust for the public. Have you actually read ANYTHING that has been said here? Read before you troll and you won't look so bad.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by jonb » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:30 pm

I think jerry springer has nothing better to do than troll. From what ive seen of his previous postings he advocates closing access to rivers and streams and basically wants everyone to leave the rivers, im sure he would love to hoard them to himself somehow and kick everyone else off it it. But thats a dillusion he will have to wake up from its 2014 and there will be lots of other people fishing your favorite river, like it or not. He should just embrace it and focus on enjoying fishing rather than becoming a radical internet troll, like he has.
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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by toxicavengr » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:52 am

natetreat wrote:gfakkema -

Upon further research I have found that yes, the Samish was used for purposes of commerce, way upstream from the areas we're talking about. I'm going to get more, but this supreme court case from 1904 directly references using the river to float logs for timber, the state has achieved statehood in 1889, it is logical to assume that they were floating logs on it before then.

http://courts.mrsc.org/mc/courts/zwashr ... rt0662.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This means, even by the more stringent state definition of navigability, that the waters and beds of the Samish river posses an easement allowing public access, therefore everything that I have said previously applies to it.

Toxicavenger - a good place to start is the foot notes provided on the poster. Google each case and read it. Links are also provided on the NOR website to many of these sources. As for navigable to the headwaters like I said before, no where does it mention that, it's just implied by the ability of a kayak to float these stretches in the upper most reaches of the rivers, and the practice of using these streams to float logs off the mountainside. The nature of the headwaters of many of our rivers is such that they are navigable all the way up to the glacier by a federal standard. Google kayaking the "Upper Upper Cispus Video" to see how awesome it is to kayak headwaters.

I am a little disappointed, I meant do you have recent court decisions? I have already looked at those that you mentioned.
we live in an ever changing society and almost all of those decision, as springerjerry mentioned, well outdated to the world we live in today. Our fore fathers could not forsee the complex society we have today and all of the issues that come with it.
A lot of things have been argued by activist and conservation groups as well as by property owners with grievances. In some cases our laws have to be fluid to be fair for all not just the few, that is why we have the courts. We have to have modern laws for modern times and we need to need to protect our rights also but I recognize that is difficult at times for it to be fair to every single individual!
In the "Float on by" argument, technically it means just that today, and I agree that stopping and pulling out and walking the bank, fishing or just enjoying the scenery should not be blocked, I have absolutely no problem with that at all but the thing you have to remember this is a double edged sword. If you argue for a public waterway then you must adhere to public laws also during your "float", meaning that the first piece of trash,or public nudity , urinating or defecating in "Public" or intoxication or whatever else some people do can nullify the legality of your trip.
Also the Oregon pamphlet states "that you cannot build a structure or dock or operate a business" on private land now it is a little vague but essentially as I read it if you are a guide you cannot set anchor on someones land and operate a business without their permission.
I have posed this question to legal council (Pro-bono) with just this in mind and I used my property as an example where the deed actually lists the river bed in a "non navigable" section of the river. The Puyallup is listed under the state as navigable from the mouth to 3 miles upstream, I previously supplied the link dated 2008 I believe... I am well beyond that section.( If you can find a ruling or something more recent that legally supercedes that, I would appreciate seeing it also)

I was told this... If you are Joe public , you most likely can set anchor temporarily for any number of reasons including to fish or recreate or make equipment adjustment or any emergency and access to the bank to the high watermark is also implied. However, I was advised that the second you are observed doing anything illegal you may be asked to leave by the property owner or law enforcement. Further you may not be a "for hire" business and set anchor on my land without permission unless my property lies within the areas that are state recognized as navigable (it does not) then it is essentially upon me if I interfere with you and I would be the one in the wrong. Being a business instead of Joe Public changes a few things as I understand it.
State Soveriegnty is recognized by the Federal government to set these laws and only in some cases will the Feds actually step in. I guess that means they really don't want to triffle with nit picky cases, they will leave it to the state to rule and set precedence.
I am not saying this issue nit picky just that the state laws are recognized first and if you have the money you can argue as far as you can go if you like to change it!

I will add that I believe we should all have equal and free access to our waterways and at the same time respect the rights of life liberty and the pursuit also. We may call it a public waterway but it goes through and "over" a lot of private property.
I don't think our right to recreate automatically trumps a landowners rights but I think we should be able to find a resolution beneficial to both sides where both interest are protected .

Also the sidewalk comment is quite laughable actually, (Apples and Oranges)I guess that means I can do all the things that people do on the river outside of someones front yard when I am on the sidewalk.... I can pee on the fence, pitch a tent, drink beer, litter and yell obcenities to name a few, and if you come out and say anything to me I can cry to the police that the owner is harrassing me. I mean it's the same thing Right? [scared] lol

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by spoonman » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:43 am

Yeah that pesky bill of rights is pretty outdated too. That shouldnt apply to society today. There's no way our founding fathers could have foreseen the society of today.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by spoonman » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:17 pm

I dont see it as apples and oranges. His main argument us that the laws are old and outdated and therefore not relevant. I honestly dont know where to fall on this one, I think private property should be respected. But I also think that if public funds are used to fill a public stream with fish for the public, then the public should be able to access the stream. The city put a sidewalk in front of my house on my property, I maintain it and pay property taxes on it. But I dont get to tell the public not to walk on it.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by natetreat » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:33 am

I'll give a quick reply to the lengthy post, not to minimize the importance of it, but because the answer is simple.

Courts have held consistently, time and again, that the right of the public to access navigable waters cannot be denied by private landowners. The right to use the water, banks and beds of rivers is held in trust by the US government for the public. No matter what your deed says, there exists an easement for the public to use your land to the mark of ordinary high water. The most recent "outdated" court case came in 1997 with the Atlanta School of Kayaking v. Douglasville County Water District.

It does not matter whether you're a guide. The term is "navigable for the purpose of commerce" for a reason. Any for hire activity that can take place on a stream is what MAKES the stream navigable.

Our country operates under a system of federalism. The states take orders from the feds on this one, and the feds have been crystal clear on their interpretation of the laws for 100s of years. The right to use rivers is guaranteed by the constitution of the United States, the HIGHEST law in the land. Maybe that's just an inconvenience for us these days, I don't know, but it is what it is. And I am encouraging all of us to exercise our rights, and inform everyone that is trying to take them away that they are breaking the law.

I can say it again and again and get even more hyperbolic if you want. It is unfortunate that landowners have to deal with bad apples, but so does everyone else. The river is a highway, a sidewalk and my church, and nobody is going to keep me out of church on Sunday.

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Re: Public rights on rivers in EVERY state

Post by jd39 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:48 am

I get Toxic's point a bit better now, if I owned riverfront property it'd be more than frustrating to have the public come treat it like a dump like the skook or any other place the public has had access to fish. It's been pretty sad the few popular places I've banked fish.
That said I will never support it getting to a point where anglers/boaters are legally trespassing by floating through sections of river and fishing. That'd be absurd in my opinion but that's what some seem to want.

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