Politics & The War (----Not Very G Rated-----)

[Marc Martyn]

Politics, Iran and The Iraq War can be discussed in this thread.

[bassackwards]

Thank you for your service in Desert Storm. Unlike our current involvement in Iraq, you served in a very well-planned war. Desert Storm was a perfect example of a justified war that was for the greater good. Iraq invaded another country unjustly, and we helped out. We had a chance to take out Suddam during that war, but you know why we didn't? Because the first Bush Administration did their homework. They knew that taking him out would have created, and I quote from a 1994 interview with Dick Cheney, "a US occupation of Iraq......a quagmire" (here is the interview I got that from - it's short, and well worth it: http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e18171.htm).

Suddam was a terrible dictator, and did terrible things to his people. The problem is, we had no way to make things better in Iraq after we took him down. In fact, we have created even more problems for the citizens of Iraq and for the rest of the world. Iraqis are dealing with even more public violence than ever before, because of the influx of terrorists into their country as a result of Suddam's regime not being there to keep the surrounding countries (and their terrorist organizations) at bay. The world is worse-off, because now we've helped skyrocket the number of Al-Qaeda recruits (among many other terrorist orginizations). Furthermore, Suddam was just one of the dozen terrible dictators in the world. By your logic we'd better take them all out one-by-one. Taking out an evil dictator is easy for a powerful nation like ours, but rebuilding a foreign nation is much more difficult (as is now painfully obvious in Iraq).

So you're right bass, the world was better with him around.

To say that I'm a fairweather American is a little strange. Disagreeing with one administration in no way makes me fairweather - I have never been for the US invasion of Iraq, and never will be. That in no way makes me any less American. The more you speak your mind, the more American you are in my opinion.

Attacking Iraq in no way decreased the chances of us getting attacked on "our soil". In fact, it increased the chances, because our occupation of Iraq has created thousands more American-hating terrorists than existed before our invasion. The way to keep from being attacked at home is by seeking out the people that actually attacked us, and whom are still threatening to attack us - Al-Qaeda. We exhausted all of our time and money in Iraq when we should have been focusing our efforts on finding Bin Laden and Al-Qaida. It has been and will continue to be the biggest blunder in US history.

You have the same "shoot first, ask questions later" attitude that got us into this mess. Arrogance, my friend, is a very dangerous thing. Please read some of the 9/11 commission report (which has equal contribution of the facts from Republicans and Democrats). Specifically, read some of Richard Clark's reports that were completely ignored before and after we were attacked (Richard Clark was the counter-terrorism adviser on the National Security Council during the 9/11 attacks, and served as a security adviser since 1973 for both Republican and Democratic presidents). Bush completely ignored intelligence regarding Al-Qaeda, and instead focused his attention on Iraq. His unwavering attention to Iraq was not based on any facts nor intelligence that was brought to him by his advisers, but rather based on his gut feeling.

Again, thank you for your work in Desert Storm. The first Bush understood the importance of actually listening to his advisers, and devised a viable plan in that war. He used war as a last resort when one country invaded another. I only wish Bush#1 would have talked some sense into his little boy before he marched our boys off to a blind war without any goals.

P.S. I have befriended many Republicans, and I even would have voted for McCain if he'd gotten the nod from the other Elephants. I like the ones that actually use their brains and are willing to hear all sides before taking action, as opposed to the ones that shoot from the hips.



Mr. Magler,

You make several good points, however, I think your "view" of what's going on over there is a bit scewed. I'm not sure what your background is or what your "first hand" knowledge of the situation is but it sounds EXACTLY like what the media wants us to believe.

You can Google whatever you want regarding the "facts" surrounding the war and why we did what we did and why we're still moving towards a peaceful solution (if that's even possible). Understand this, a dead Saddam is better than a empowered Saddam, TRUST ME....if you don't believe me ask the Iraqi people. Seriously, I would urge you to take a trip over there sometime and ask them. Sure, they're going through some tough times right now, inocent people are dying every day. That's nothing new to them. If you played music under Saddam's government you were put to death...if you played games....death....if you disagreed with Iraqi leadership...death and the list goes on. The Iraqi people VOTED for the first time in their lives in the last election....THEY VOTED!!!! They have cable television and kids are allowed to play games and go to school for what THEY want to learn, not what the government wants to teach them....that's FREEDOM my friend. Too many American have never seen or been in a country that isn't free, I have...I want to cry every time I come HOME to America and see our flag flying overhead. I think it should be mandatory that everyone spend time abroad for a period of time in a Third-World country so they appreciate what they have here in America.

I'm not saying your love for this country is any less than mine, I'm just encouraging you to think outside your media filled box for a minute and look at the big picture. We ARE safer here because OUR troops are fighting over there. I don't agree with EVERYTHING that this administration has done in handling the war. If it were me, I would have called in the "Heavy's" a long time ago and kept 'em coming until we all those bastards were flushed out and killed (bastards = Terrorists). The problem is our media coverage of the war is 95% negative, that's what sells!!!! Nobody wants to see our Soldier's handing out candy to Iraqi kids or guarding schools so kids can have a safe day at school or restoring working electrical, sewage and T.V. plants in the City's. That doesn't sell papers, death tolls and bombing sell newspapers. Watch your local newscast tonight and tell me what you see.

I DO support our President, at least he's doing something about it, right or wrong he's doing SOMETHING....unlike Clinton who knew of the problem and did NOTHING. Clinton was so caught up in his own scaddles and lying to Congress, all the while, the Terrorists were training right under his big fat "cigar"....by the way, Clinton and the rest of the "Libs" agreed that Saddam had WMD's, they cut and ran as soon President Bush went into Iraq because it wasn't popular to the American people. Boo hoo!!!!

I appreciate and respect your opinion, I agree with you THIS is what makes us the best country in the world, the opportunity to express out OWN opinions freely.

[A9]

Good response/writing by both of you. Very interesting for me. It's tough with all the anti-war stuff the media is throwing out now to pick a side. That's why I enjoy reading these personal pieces to see more then the media says..

[leahcim_dahc]

It's tough with all the anti-war stuff the media is throwing out now to pick a side.

Aye...it's almost always better to be viewed first-hand to really get the full picture. The media will only show what is particularly popular at the moment...

Unfortunately, while politicians are sitting back in their cozy offices, going home to their family every night and playing their game of political hopscotch, servicemen and women are played as pawns in a game of who's right and who's wrong. Right, wrong or indifferent...there's a mess in the middle east that needs to be cleaned up.


bassackwards-

Thanks for your service...what did you do during the first Gulf War? AF, Army, MOS...etc., etc.


Chad

[A9]

Aye...it's almost always better to be viewed first-hand to really get the full picture.
Chad

Oh don't take me wrong I never actually did believe the media but with the war coverage on CNN or the news almost every time around when I'm channel surfing, it's hard to not hear it when its getting jammed in your ear.

[leahcim_dahc]

it's hard to not hear it when its getting jammed in your ear.

I hear ya...talk about sensory overload at times. :bounce:


Chad

[A9]

Its funny how different the coverage of the war is now than it was when we started the war. American media these days.........

[Marc Martyn]

Good response/writing by both of you. Very interesting for me. It's tough with all the anti-war stuff the media is throwing out now to pick a side...

Sam, join the rest of the people in this nation. I don't know of anyone that "likes" war. The media in a nation that is involved in war is biased. There is a way to see the facts from a third view.

The internet is truely the "information super highway." You are not tied down to Fox, CNN, ABC, CBS, etc. You can search the entire world for information on the war from your desktop computer. You can get news from Sidney, London, Moscow, Cairo, Montreal, Rome, Brussels and on and on. They all have correspondents in the middle east. Most of their websites have an english option.

In reading some of the other "points of view", you can get a better understanding of the world view of the current conflict.

[A9]

Oh I do read from many other points of view. For my senior year Government class, we were required to do some research on such topics as the war from other viewpoints. Needless to say, this was right after al Jazeera launched the english-language website. That was interesting to read from a middle eastern news source.

I know of quite a few pro-war folks out there still...Suprisingly they aren't right wing conservative, they are actually moderate from what I can tell and from what they have told me. The dems will have quite an advantage in the next election though.

Only problem with the internet and reading up on the war is that it's almost always opinion, which is good and bad. Very few reads that are unbiased these days, but then again it's always fun to read viewpoints on both sides of the war. I've just yet to figure out whether I'm against or with the war.

[cavdad45]

The best way to find out the truth about the Iraq War is by talking with the men and women who volunteered to serve our nation there. Forget the media and their bias. Forget the the Dems who are willing to push America into a humiliating surrender that will only result in more America-targetted terrorism worldwide, just to gain political power.

Speaking of veterans and servicemen. Thank you America for the grateful accomodations given to this generations fighting men and women. My son graduated Infantry School and some of his buddies and he went to a steak house and ran up a very large bill. An older gentleman came by to shake their hands and thank them for their service. The boys invited him to dinner with them and he accepted and kept company with them. When he got up to leave he left a $50 bill on the table and said that should cover his part of the ticket. After a while, the young soldiers were wondering if the waitress was going to bring them the bill so they could divy-up and go. The waitress told them that the older gentleman had already paid the tab and the bill at the table was the tip.

When my son came home on leave, we had a family outting to Claim Jumper. Because of my son, we were given priority seating and they told him to order an appetizer, the biggest steak, and dessert as it was comped by the company for all servicemembers.

As a dad, I am so grateful as to the way the American public respects my son and his service to the greatest nation on Earth. As a veteran, I remember the "Dogs and Sailors - Keep Off The Grass" signs and am thankful toward the new attitudes towards our servicemembers.

If you see a young servicemember, at the very least, thank them. Buy them a steak dinner. Offer them a ride if you see them at the bus stop.

[bassackwards]

Cavdad,

You couldn't be more right on with that...very well said. First off, thank you for your service and sacrifice to our country and thank you for raising a stand up young man who's willing to go against the "norm" in society and join the military in such an unpopular era.

I agree with you 100%, these men and women over there are in their early to mid-twenties (most of them, if not younger), just out of high school, not a penny to their name, in a profession of saving our ASSES from people who want us dead.

I go out of my way to thank every Serviceman and Servicewoman I see. It's a small gesture but it goes along way, we all need to remember...they see what the media is saying about them too.

I pray that your son (and his buddies) are safe. Please extend our gratitude and appreciation to them for sticking their neck out for us so we can sit in our warm offices and "gripe" on a fishing board.

[cavdad45]

I am very proud of my boy and proud of the generation of kids who see that some things are bigger than themselves.

[Mr. Magler]

The best way to find out the truth about the Iraq War is by talking with the men and women who volunteered to serve our nation there. Forget the media and their bias. Forget the the Dems who are willing to push America into a humiliating surrender that will only result in more America-targetted terrorism worldwide, just to gain political power.

I have directly spoken with two soldiers who served in Afghanistan and Iraq in the past 4 years. One was an Army Ranger who served in Afghanistan seeking out Al-Qaeda members in the mountains, and the other was an Infantry soldier who fought in the desert and streets of Iraq.

First I spoke with the Army Ranger when he was back home for Christmas two years ago. He was in good spirits, and really felt that he had a purpose. He knew why he was there - to capture the terrorists who attacked our country on 9/11. More importantly, he knew who his enemies were. His morale was very high, and he couldn't wait to get back to Afghanistan to fight for our Country. I told him how much I admired and appreciated what he was doing.

Then earlier this year I spoke with the Infantry soldier who had just returned from Iraq last year......and boy, did he have a different perspective than the Ranger. He told me he had no idea why he was there. He said he hated our President for sending him to Iraq (and extending his stay by another year when he was only a month from coming home initially). I asked him how the other soldiers in his unit felt about the Iraq war, and he explained they weren't sure why they were there either.

I have watched and read many other interviews with soldiers in Iraq who echo those same feelings about their time in Iraq (from many non-partisan sources that are not affiliated with mainstream media). They don't know what they're fighting for. This administration's disregard for proper planning has lead to a pointless occupation of Iraq that sacrifices our brave soldiers daily in the name of what? I sure don't know the anwser to that, but maybe someone else does. But don't you think at the very least, our troops should know what they're fighting for? Obviously our President disregards their feelings about it.

I will always support our incredibly brave and courageous troops. They are all heros in my mind. I could never do what they do, and would never claim to know what it's like to fight in a war. Supporting our troops to me includes giving them a purpose for being there. This Administration has shown very little support of our troops from day one. That's not coming from me, but from soldiers who have fought in Iraq during this Administration.

Support our troops! (That means you too George...once you get back from vacation, that is.)

[cavdad45]

Our soldiers are completely aware of what's at stake in Iraq. More so than the politicized media will ever report. They know the importance of their mission and most volunteer to return. They deal with the Iraqi people on a daily basis and have made alliances that will overcome Al Queda in Iraq, as well as set the stage, if necessary for Iranian operations. Even Osama Bin Laden has been using AlJazeer to rally his dwindling cause in Iraq because the American soldier on the ground has been giving them what the Iraqis have never known, hope for a future.

Even the greatest generation of World War II had disgruntled members, as our armed services do today. The person you talked to was definitely in the minority opinion concerning the morale of American troops in Iraq.

We have to finish the mission! If not, Iraq will become a rallying point for Islamic terrorism worldwide. Remember, they beat the Russians in Afganistan, and handing them a victory in Iraq will be a larger coup for the Islamo-fascists and their desire to terrorize the world in the name of Allah.

[Marc Martyn]

We have to finish the mission! If not, Iraq will become a rallying point for Islamic terrorism worldwide. Remember, they beat the Russians in Afganistan, and handing them a victory in Iraq will be a larger coup for the Islamo-fascists and their desire to terrorize the world in the name of Allah.

We have not finished the mission we originally set out to do, eliminate Al Queda and the Taliban in Afganistan.

Your Iraq argument is familiar to what I heard 40 years ago:

We have to finish the mission! If not, Vietnam will become a rallying point for communists worldwide. Remember, they got into Cuba, and handing them a victory in Vietnam will be a larger coup for the communists and their desire to socialize the world in the name of Karl Marx.

From 1963 to 1973, the Vietnam War cost the United States 58,000 lives and 350,000 casualties. If you check the label on your Hawaiian shirt, it just may say "made in Vietnam"

We really should have kept our nose to the grind stone in Afganistan.
Taking out Suddam was removing the counterbalance against Iran. This was a mistake.

[bassackwards]

We have to finish the mission! If not, Iraq will become a rallying point for Islamic terrorism worldwide. Remember, they beat the Russians in Afganistan, and handing them a victory in Iraq will be a larger coup for the Islamo-fascists and their desire to terrorize the world in the name of Allah.

We have not finished the mission we originally set out to do, eliminate Al Queda and the Taliban in Afganistan.

Your Iraq argument is familiar to what I heard 40 years ago:

We have to finish the mission! If not, Vietnam will become a rallying point for communists worldwide. Remember, they got into Cuba, and handing them a victory in Vietnam will be a larger coup for the communists and their desire to socialize the world in the name of Karl Marx.

From 1963 to 1973, the Vietnam War cost the United States 58,000 lives and 350,000 casualties. If you check the label on your Hawaiian shirt, it just may say "made in Vietnam"

We really should have kept our nose to the grind stone in Afganistan.
Taking out Suddam was removing the counterbalance against Iran. This was a mistake.

Marc...all due respect,

You cannot compare Vietnam to what's going on in the middle east right now. That's like comparing apples to watermellons. If that's the case we should have left Hitler in power also???

Bottom line, they (Al Queda) want us DEAD, they attached us on 9/11...I don't want to hear the argument about Saddam NOT being a part of that...if you believe that (anyone, not just you Marc), you are badly mistaken.

2 days after the initial wave of bombing stopped during Desert Storm, I was talking with a Saudi Soldier, hoping to hear that he was thankful for us saving his country's A** he said "now you need to all go home...you are not Muslim...you are no longer welcome here"....WHAT!!! My jaw dropped. We had JUST finished exchanging uniforms (as a sign of unity) and now he's telling me to "go home"...

WAKE UP AMERICA....THEY DON'T LIKE US...THEY WANT US TO CONVERT TO ISLAM OR DIE!!!! That's the brutal truth, you won't see that on CNN or even Fox for that matter.

I don't agree with the way the entire war is being handled, I do believe are forces are making progress. The duties at hand include (but not limited to) maintaining peace, hunting terrorist and breaking up terrorist cells in Iraq and nieghboring country's, training a unequiped military (many of whom are risking their lives and their families lives for being in the Iraqi military) and spreading democracy in a country that's NEVER seen or felt freedom in their entire lives. Pretty tall order if you ask me....anyone got a better plan???? Didn't think so. Don't be so quick to criticize the President if you don't have a better solution.

Withdrawing our forces IS NOT a solution, that's called fuel to the fire. Half a me wishes the President would say "fine, everyone come home"....just watch...the Democrat's will find something wrong with that. Not ONE SINGLE Democrat has ever stood up and gave a viable solution to the withdrawl or occupation in Iraq. All they want to do is gain votes by saying they'll "Bring our men and women home"....THEN WHAT MRS. SPEAKER?????

I need a beer!!!

This isn't in any way an attach on you Marc, just a general "gripe"...I'm just tired of hearing opinions of people who have never been in a war or have never been to the middle east. I respect your service to your country and appreciate the fact that we are able to express our opinions freely because we didn't "cut bait and run" everytime a war became unpopular. FINISH THE FREAKIN MISSION!!!!!!!

[leahcim_dahc]

bassackwards-
I agree with a majority of what you said...'cept the whole "...I'm just tired of hearing opinions of people who have never been in a war or have never been to the middle east." thing.

Those who have not been in combat or in the Middle East in general still have the right to voice their opinion on the current situation. Whether I agree with their position or not...they still have that right.


cavdad45-
Tell your son thank you for his service...oh, yeah poke him in the ribs and let him know he should have went Cav instead!! LOL!! :bom:


Chad

[Marc Martyn]

I need a beer!!!

This isn't in any way an attach on you Marc, just a general "gripe"...I'm just tired of hearing opinions of people who have never been in a war or have never been to the middle east. I respect your service to your country and appreciate the fact that we are able to express our opinions freely because we didn't "cut bait and run" everytime a war became unpopular. FINISH THE FREAKIN MISSION!!!!!!!

Did you get your beer? I quit that stuff 19 years ago because I would turn into Mr. Hyde:rambo: :shaking2:

War is War, period. Hitler had laid out a 20 year plan on occupying the entire world and exterminating an entire religious group of people.
Wars are fought for these main reasons, land, resources, money and religion. All of these apply in our current situation.
One thing in your comments that is abundently clear. Your are a staunch Republican and no one will ever change your views. That is your privilege. However, you should not place all the blame on democrates because the war is not going as "planned"
Many of the people on this forum are quite young. For them, this war is their first and many are finding it very confusing. For we who have been through a war before, it is not correct for us to chastise them for not participating in it, or telling them the only way of learning about it from those that were there.
Yes, they do want to kill us. That is very clear in their actions and statements. However, the statements that we are getting from our current administration are mixed. The morning after Bush's reelection, when asked what his plans were for the next 4 years, he said "to continue spreading Democracy throughout the Arab world".
Now, was that the original purpose of us going into Iraq? Or, was it to remove the WMD's and take out Suddam.
We as the most powerful nation in the world, have the capability to turn any middle eastern country into glass within 30 minutes. I hope that it never comes to that.
I wish your son-in-law well and hope dearly that he stays safe. We all appreciate what he is doing. This is from a democrat. I'm sure you realized that :-) I also thank you for your Dessert Storm duty. I was in full support of that mission.
I will leave you with a couple of quotes from history that are always relevant:

"Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. "
Herman Goering

Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a President and senators and congressmen and government officials, but the voters of this country.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose - and you allow him to make war at pleasure.
Abraham Lincoln

[Mr. Magler]

FINISH THE FREAKIN MISSION!!!!!!!

Which mission is that? How quickly and conveniently you have forgotten........

We went to war to find Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. Remember that? That's the reason for war that we were given by our President. Then instead of admitting he failed to accomplish that mission, he decided to completely change the mission to "liberating" the Iraqi people. I'm all for liberating oppressed people, but that part was never planned out and that's why there now exists no good solution. Not to mention, this new "mission"
has absolutely nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. Or have we forgotten that as well?

What's that you say? Suddam was linked to Al-Qaeda? The only place I've heard that mentioned is in your biased mainstream media. And it's a completely false association according to the 9/11 Commission Report. In fact, according to this bipartisan report based on facts through US intelligence, Osama Bin Laden and Suddam Hussein had never teamed up on anything.

Before you say "finish the mission", ask yourself what mission are we finishing? I'm sorry, I can't just blindly follow the leader based on his latest spin on our involvement in Iraq. He has never fought in a war either, so why should we listen to him?

[bassackwards]

Chad: You are right, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I shouldn't have come on that strong.

Marc: It's Cavdad's son-in-law that's serving (give credit where it's due) I was in Desert Storm though, and you are absolutely right, THAT one was done right (as right as war can be). I am a staunch Republican, can't help it and probably won't ever change, however, I am also a "outside the box thinker" and have my own opinion on things (obviously). I get so "T'd" off watching the war coverage. I have a hard time figuring out what the hell the media is trying to gain by painting such a negative picture to the American public. Our forces DO KNOW what their mission is over there regardless of what is said over here. They are a VOLUNTEER "Army", most of whom enlisted AFTER 9/11 and AFTER the war started. That's called STONES...young men and women who know of the danger they are signing up for and in spite of that, sign up anyway....that's COURAGE!!!!

Mr. Magler: Whoever it was you talked to (Army Ranger?) that doesn't know what his "mission" is...he needs to pay attention more. He's a freakin Army Ranger....HE KNOWS HIS MISSION!!!!! Doesn't mean he agrees with it, but I guarantee his carries it out without hesitation. Ask 100 service men and women what they think of the war and you'll most likely get 100 different answers. The military doesn't want robots, they want motivated HIGHLY INTELLEGENT men and women who if asked will give you their opinion. That being said, they know what they signed up for and they know why they are there regardless of what they tell you over a beer and peanuts. I respect your opinion. That's what makes this country what it is. I also appreciate you support of our troops. I would caution you to think a little more before you start throwing stones at a war-time President if you don't have all the facts. Good talk, look forward to more.

The way this is going, I'm going to be a "Supreme Overlord" by the end of the "debate" :thumleft: