Politics & The War (----Not Very G Rated-----)

[bassackwards]

No...I didn't have a beer, instead a Caffiene Free Diet Pepsi w/ a bowl of popcorn...pretty boring I know. I'm not much of a drinker, it just sounded better at the end of my "rant" :rambo:

[Mr. Magler]

bassackwards -

Just to clarify, the Army Ranger was in Afghanistan and absolutely knew why he was there. It was the Infantry soldier in Iraq that never understood the purpose of being in Iraq. Sure he was given daily "missions" to occupy his time there. But he never felt like there was an overall goal in Iraq. That was my whole point: Afghanistan makes sense - Iraq doesn't.

You tell me to think a little more about throwng stones at a war-time President. I've done plenty of thinking about this Presidency - I've actually researched the facts for myself. I've read from many many sources. I try to find facts everywhere from far left to far right, as well as bipartisan sources. It can definitely be difficult to sort through the BS and find information that is factual. But if you look in enough places from both ends of the partisan spectrum, you can get a pretty good understanding. I certainly don't have all of the facts. Nobody does. Nobody knows everything. In fact, I even buy into the argument that our current President was a victim of faulty US intelligence regarding WMD's leading up to the overthrowing of Iraq. However, there were highly skilled UN weapons inspectors all over Iraq that insisted that Suddam did not have, nor have the slightest capability of making a WMD. If Bush would have thought outside of "the box" known as Bush's advisery board room....and listened to someone other than a guy he appointed , then he might not have got us into this mess.

I'm surprised at your enfatuation with this President. This "war-time" President created this war. And you say we're just supposed to support him because he decided to start a war? No thanks. This "war-time" President has spent more time on vacation than any other President in history. He doesn't seem to care about this war all that much, so why should you?

Being a "staunch Republican" by definition means that you don't think "outside the box". To see both sides in an unbiased way requires that you are not so one-sided in your thinking. When a "staunch Rebulican" or "staunch Democrat" hears something that starts to sound un-Republican or un-Democratic they'll immediately go on the defensive, and never really absorb the other person's point of view. Being staunch-anything by definition means you will not stray from your initial belief even if new facts come to light on the contrary.

[jmay]

I have read this entire topic top to bottom, I guess I am one of the few that still support our efforts in the middle east. I have two close friends in Iraq that paint a completely different picture from what we see on the news, and that point has already be covered. Personally none of us are going to change anyone's opionion of the War or Bush 43.

The only point I want to make is the please remember why each one of us can bicker freely in this or any other fourm without worry of reprocussion, IT IS the 100's of thousands of soilders that died protecting this country for the last 231 years.

Our great Nation's inability to conduct war now, and throughout history, has been by design. The military has always been handicapped by our elected officals to prevent what our founders feared most, a King or in modern times a dictator.

I also find it ironic that the US has not "won" a war/conflict since the invention of the TV. No matter how anyone tries to spin it war boils down to who can kill the most people. In our current "information" age people sitting down for dinner with the evening news see things that only those with rifles saw prior.

That being said it is amazing how short lived the American people's memory are. 6 years ago even the most liberal and peace loving of my aquaitances were calling the the heads of those responsible for 9-11, now 3/4's of our population think life is back to normal and the war needs to end. Can anyone image how our lifes would be different if that same shortsidedness had occured a couple years after Pearl Harbor? I bet we would not have the liberty of this fourm.

I would rather fight them in the Middle East with our Professional Military, than allow them to kill our women and children on our own soil.

I have never been in the service, anyone reading this that is currently in or has served, Thank you!

[bassackwards]

I have read this entire topic top to bottom, I guess I am one of the few that still support our efforts in the middle east. I have two close friends in Iraq that paint a completely different picture from what we see on the news, and that point has already be covered. Personally none of us are going to change anyone's opionion of the War or Bush 43.

The only point I want to make is the please remember why each one of us can bicker freely in this or any other fourm without worry of reprocussion, IT IS the 100's of thousands of soilders that died protecting this country for the last 231 years.

Our great Nation's inability to conduct war now, and throughout history, has been by design. The military has always been handicapped by our elected officals to prevent what our founders feared most, a King or in modern times a dictator.

I also find it ironic that the US has not "won" a war/conflict since the invention of the TV. No matter how anyone tries to spin it war boils down to who can kill the most people. In our current "information" age people sitting down for dinner with the evening news see things that only those with rifles saw prior.

That being said it is amazing how short lived the American people's memory are. 6 years ago even the most liberal and peace loving of my aquaitances were calling the the heads of those responsible for 9-11, now 3/4's of our population think life is back to normal and the war needs to end. Can anyone image how our lifes would be different if that same shortsidedness had occured a couple years after Pearl Harbor? I bet we would not have the liberty of this fourm.

I would rather fight them in the Middle East with our Professional Military, than allow them to kill our women and children on our own soil.

I have never been in the service, anyone reading this that is currently in or has served, Thank you!

AMEN brother...

Am I the only one who remember's Congress standing hand-in-hand on the steps of the Capital building, singing "God Bless America"??? You hit it on the head jmay...American's have VERY short memories. Hell...we elected Clinton TWICE after knowing he lied to Congress and committed udultery in the Oval Office

I try to be open minded, but I can't figure Liberal's out....I honestly can't. Call me crazy, but I don't need the government to "save" my money for me, we DON'T need ANOTHER federal "commission" to investigate the war...I'm for smaller government and national security....that means fight them in their backyard NOT yours Mr. Magler!!!!
You and Littleriver would make a great debate team. Each of you take a few words out of each of my paragraphs, do some research on the internet and then come back and sling "facts" at me like I don't know what you're doing. Come on man, be original. This isn't my first picnic discussing the war and you or anyone else are not going to change my mind or sway me to believe anything different.

Thank you jmay...I'm glad to see there is still some hope for this country.

[Drewp]

Bassakwards,

You keep bringing up not wanting to be fighting them in your own backyard. Sorry, but a war on terror is an oxymoron. You can't fight "terror," you can do your best to prevent it, but as hard as it is to think about, it's only a matter of time before another 9/11 happens. You mentioned in an earlier post that you need your guns to protect yourself from these terrorists, well, I don't think you are going to stop a plane from flying into a building with a hunting rifle, and even if you could, you will never know when it is coming.

How do you protect yourself from terror born in your own country? Timmy ring any bells?

I think the best way to protect against this "terror" that the CURRENT ADMINISTRATION's media has frightened the public to death about, is to not go around attacking every country that we think needs democracy. What kind of foreign relations policy is that? You said yourself that the rest of the world hates America, but you seem to accept that. I think that's a huge thing that needs to be changed, and liberating countries at random doesn't seem to be a great way to get the world on our side (funny sidenote that this country we decided to liberate has lots and lots of oil).

[bassackwards]

Bassakwards,

You keep bringing up not wanting to be fighting them in your own backyard. Sorry, but a war on terror is an oxymoron. You can't fight "terror," you can do your best to prevent it, but as hard as it is to think about, it's only a matter of time before another 9/11 happens. You mentioned in an earlier post that you need your guns to protect yourself from these terrorists, well, I don't think you are going to stop a plane from flying into a building with a hunting rifle, and even if you could, you will never know when it is coming.

How do you protect yourself from terror born in your own country? Timmy ring any bells?

I think the best way to protect against this "terror" that the CURRENT ADMINISTRATION's media has frightened the public to death about, is to not go around attacking every country that we think needs democracy. What kind of foreign relations policy is that? You said yourself that the rest of the world hates America, but you seem to accept that. I think that's a huge thing that needs to be changed, and liberating countries at random doesn't seem to be a great way to get the world on our side (funny sidenote that this country we decided to liberate has lots and lots of oil).

You're right Drew...let's send Hillary over to Iraq and Iran to sit down with the Muslim leader and improve our "foriegn relations"...gosh...why didn't I think of that



I'm obviously WAAAY out of my league here...you all have experience on the subject matter

[Drewp]

Come on man....it has nothing to do with leagues. It's the same thing that happened in the Windmills thread where you don't like what others are saying, so it's time to take the ball and go home.

Hillary aint going to get my vote. If it wasn't a total waste, I'd vote for Stephen Colbert. But since I have to pick the better of two evils, I'm going to vote with whatever get's republcans out of office. I fall in between on a lot of issues, but I do hang towards left.

[bassackwards]

Come on man....it has nothing to do with leagues. It's the same thing that happened in the Windmills thread where you don't like what others are saying, so it's time to take the ball and go home.

Hillary aint going to get my vote. If it wasn't a total waste, I'd vote for Stephen Colbert. But since I have to pick the better of two evils, I'm going to vote with whatever get's republcans out of office. I fall in between on a lot of issues, but I do hang towards left.

I'm not "taking my ball and going home". I'm just not going to sit here and "debate" with people who have been "educated" by the media and the internet.

Same with the windmill thread, LR had all the answers so why waste my time in arguing my point. Besides, I'm not going to be his "wipping boy" to get his point across because of my employer, just not gonna do it.

I'd much rather have my A** handed to me by someone who know's what the hell they're talking about because of life experience than someone who's been taught by a Professor or "research" on the internet....just doesn't make for good conversation. If I've misrepresented you, please, qualify your statements and I'd be MORE than happy to hear your side. Again, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect it. I guess like the windmills, we can agree to disagree. I've been to the middle east several times and have first hand knowledge of that culture and war.

"Now where's my ball"????....."I'm leaving"...... LOL :bounce:

[Mr. Magler]

bassackwards -

I am glad you realize that I am responding directly to your points. I'm not trying to be sneaky by taking words directly from your postings . It's just part of actually listening to what the other person is saying. Try it out sometime. You might be surprised at what you learn as a result. Apparently you don't like to listen to opinions that differ from yours. You enjoy talking at people though. I'm sorry that you're so set in your ways. That's a real shame.

I'm also sorry I haven't visited Iraq since we overthrew their government and increased the number of terrorists and suicide bombers in the country. Although it sounds like you've been there recently, so I'd really like to hear about that. These poor soldiers don't even know who their enemy is over there. The enemies are dressed just like innocent civilians. It's much different from Desert Storm where you were fighting an Army with uniforms.

I'm all for fighting terrorism outside of our country. However, I'm not for stirring up a nest of bees you can't even see and saying "Come and get me!"

[Marc Martyn]

My apologies to Cavdad. With these quote boxes inside quote boxes inside reply boxes on different pages, I have a hard time telling who said what, where, when and in what thread.:compress::-s The army ranger I think was in Afghanistan and the infantry was in Iraq. Bottom line is I appreciate their service.

All the comments on this thread are excellent. It means that this issue is on the minds of all intelligent people.

There is one thing that concerns me tremendously. There is a real sense of fear growing throughout the country. I believe that it is fed primarily by the media. I get so discussed with all the "what if" scenerios that the networks are flooding the airwaves with. "Are our Airlines Safe?". "The Madrid Bombing:Are our railways safe?", "Are our college campuses really safe?", "How safe are your children's toys?", "Are our Ports safe?"

FDR imspired an entire nation in a very difficult time by stating: "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself"

Here is Webster's definition of Terrorism:
The state of fear and submission so produced.

You can bet that Osama is watching every minute of it and smiling. He is accomplishing what he set out to do, terrorizing us.

When people live in a constant state of fear, they do not think rationally.

Many of the politicians that are running now (both parties) use 9/11 frequently in there speeches. Rudy uses is almost constantly. This in my mind is their effort to scare us into voting for them. All of us have the images of the Twin Towers permanently ingrained into our minds. These politicians are using that memory to try and get your vote.

We Americans are going to the polls in exactly one year from today. For the next 365 days, you are going to see the dirtiest election campaign in history. It is "our job" to choose the best candidate to lead us through these difficult times. We cannot make a good decision out of fear.

Speaking of fear!8-[
If my wife comes into the room again and sees me on this forum instead of editing my son's wedding video, I will be in big trouble. Man, no place in the house will be safe. There will be IED's under the toilet seat:bom: , under the coffee pot:bom: and hallside bombs planted everywhere!:shaking2:


Oh, BTW, Hillary doesn't even have the nomination yet, let alone the presidency. Good Lord, let's get through the primaries before we start predicting DOOOOOOM

[sgpwayne]

It amazes me the difference in political rhetoric from the different age groups. The dissenters have their points that they consider inviolate and the pro-war people have theirs. Many years ago, say 1941, We went to war because we were attacked, there was no discussion about the pro's and con's. Every citizen did their part too bring a successful conclusion to that conflict. Heaven help you if you bad- mouthed the President, the congress, or the war effort in general. Those kind of things just were not acceptable at that time in history. Now, a different time and we find it acceptable to voice our opinion on just about everything. The people have changed, they now expect instant gratification on most eveything. Go to war,win it in 24 hours. graduate from college, become a CEO overnight. I think that, because of modern communications and entertainment, the people of this country have forgotten how much effort it takes to remain free. Everybody talks about our constitutional rights, but nobody talks about the sacrifices we should be making to preserve those rights. We as a people elected the President, we should be supporting him, if you don't like the things he says and does then by all means elect a different one. While he is in office he is still the President, and whether or not you voted for him, he still represents all of us to the best of his ability. The President cannot by himself do anything, He needs the Congress to vote for the funds, to allocate the money. It is not just him to be blamed . You voted him in so by carrying that out to conclusion YOU are just as responsible as he his.

[A9]

Oh, BTW, Hillary doesn't even have the nomination yet, let alone the presidency. Good Lord, let's get through the primaries before we start predicting DOOOOOOM

I just hope she isn't the last Dem standing after it all cause we all know the Dems will have a big advantage in this election....

[leahcim_dahc]

There is one thing that concerns me tremendously. There is a real sense of fear growing throughout the country. I believe that it is fed primarily by the media. I get so discussed with all the "what if" scenerios that the networks are flooding the airwaves with. "Are our Airlines Safe?". "The Madrid Bombing:Are our railways safe?", "Are our college campuses really safe?", "How safe are your children's toys?", "Are our Ports safe?"

++

The other day I was watching a little t.v. with my daughter and saw a commercial about what children should do in the event of a terrorist attack. I cannot remember what channel it was on, if I was with my daughter chances are it was either the disney channel, learning channel or the discovery channel...I haven't seen it again since, though.


Chad

[bassackwards]

Anyone seen my ball????

[bassackwards]

It amazes me the difference in political rhetoric from the different age groups. The dissenters have their points that they consider inviolate and the pro-war people have theirs. Many years ago, say 1941, We went to war because we were attacked, there was no discussion about the pro's and con's. Every citizen did their part too bring a successful conclusion to that conflict. Heaven help you if you bad- mouthed the President, the congress, or the war effort in general. Those kind of things just were not acceptable at that time in history. Now, a different time and we find it acceptable to voice our opinion on just about everything. The people have changed, they now expect instant gratification on most eveything. Go to war,win it in 24 hours. graduate from college, become a CEO overnight. I think that, because of modern communications and entertainment, the people of this country have forgotten how much effort it takes to remain free. Everybody talks about our constitutional rights, but nobody talks about the sacrifices we should be making to preserve those rights. We as a people elected the President, we should be supporting him, if you don't like the things he says and does then by all means elect a different one. While he is in office he is still the President, and whether or not you voted for him, he still represents all of us to the best of his ability. The President cannot by himself do anything, He needs the Congress to vote for the funds, to allocate the money. It is not just him to be blamed . You voted him in so by carrying that out to conclusion YOU are just as responsible as he his.

=d&gt]Thank you!!![/b]

[sgpwayne]

AMEN

[sgpwayne]

One more thing, If yiou didn't excercise your right to vote!!!!! You have no right to complain

[leahcim_dahc]

One more thing, If yiou didn't excercise your right to vote!!!!! You have no right to complain

I have to disagree on that one...I will complain and voice my opinion about whomever and whatever I so choose whether I voted or not. It is my right to not vote, as well. However, I will pick and choose my battles. I will not complain about a specific administration or members of that administration, nor their policies...however, I will voice my opinion on how that policy is managed or carried out. I am a citizen of the United States...I am a soldier in the United States Army...I also do not vote. What makes my opinion any less valuable than some uneducated schmuck that can walk into a voter's booth and punch a couple buttons, fill out a piece of paper, or heaven forbid choose incorrectly because they didn't understand the balloting system. It doesn't. I have just as much right to voice my opinion as anyone else, whether I vote or not. No one....I say again, no one will stop me from doing so.


Chad

[sgpwayne]

NO ONE said anything about your opinion, everyone has one. It is YOUR right not to vote, but how in good conscience can you say that something is wrong with the democratic system if you don't participate in making it the type of society that meets your needs and desires. I too served my country and I am extremely proud of that fact, as you should be. If a person who is designated to be your officer tells you do something do you examine his motives before you carry out his orders. If that was the case we wouldn't have a democracy (republic) we would have anarchy. If I am not mistaken the constitution says some place that we are OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, and FOR THE PEOPLE, apparently some of the people don't want the system presently in place and the only way to change it is to VOTE. It will do no good to complain if you don't participate. That is why a small, but very active, group of citizens can make their voice heard. They have exercised their rights to create the reforms they feel will benefit them. If you don't like the system, use the system to change it. NUF SAID WHERE DID I LEAVE MY BALL

[Marc Martyn]

One the subject of voting, I thought that I would throw this into the conversation.
Citizen participation in our government is crusial because, we are the government. Congress really isn't a disconnected alien entity unless we allow it to be.
Today it is so easy to "tell Washington" what you think. When I was young, you had to sit down with pen and paper and "write your congressman". Now, with the technology we have, they come to you and ask what your opinions are every week. I am referring to http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/
I subscribe to the CONGRESS.ORG WEEKLY UPDATE that is e-mailed to me each week. In that e-mail, they tell you what votes are coming up and ask what your opinions are on that issue. It is very simple because they list the proposals and acts that are upcoming and all you have to do is click on 'I oppose' or 'I support'. You register by your zip code and your replies go to your district representatives.
Another good way of staying in touch with your elected officials is to enter their phone numbers in your cell phone speed dial directory. If something disturbs you, you hit your speed dial number and voice your opinion. You can do this almost anywhere, on a fairy, buss or walking down the street. Now how simple can it get.

Get involved and participate. It gives you a feeling that at least you are trying to make a difference.