Puget Sound early winter hatchery steelhead

[natetreat]

The hatchery/wild fish debate is killing sport fishing. If we lose our PS hatchery steelhead, we lose millions of dollars, hours on the river... Not to mention that those of us who don't stop fishing will inundate the areas that do have hatchery fish. If you think Grays harbor tribs were crowded this year, just you wait. The Hump, Nooch, Bogey, Hoh... we will be elbow to @$$hole with our boats. Think of the parking lot at reiter after a big rain. Now put those guys with the guys at the Big Eddy on the Snoqualmie, the guys that would be on the Cascade hatchery, the guys from Fortson and the stragglers from the Nooksack, Green... Park them at the handi cap hole on the Bogey. The rivers down south will look like the parking lot at Best Buy on Black Friday. Suddenly, hatcheries down south will not be making spawning escapement because of the gauntlet of anglers. The fisheries will close early. Moving the parking lot too another over crowded system. Without hatchery steelhead, there will be ZERO angling opportunity near seattle from December-June. From October to December we have late coho in some tribs, chum in the Green and that's about it. So two months of boot fishing. This will destroy the industry. This is GARBAGE.

[Bodofish]

Nate, 1,000% right on!!!!!

My beef is they're justification is bought and paid for with our tax dollars via the consultants they hire. Then you have the Eco Nazi's that would really rather have us not fishing at all. Not using the States vast undeveloped land resources because we might encroach on a wild animal. Two agendas that mesh perfectly at the "coup de gras", State gets rid of outdoor management and our tax dollars paying for things we want and the Eco Nazi's get to keep us out of the woods and off the water.

[sickbayer]

We just need a leader, a person who can galvanize the sportspersons ? Imagine nobody buying a license in revolt, it soon change.

[obryan214]

an early step in making sport fishing a thing of the past?

[BentRod]

Well, all I can say is that it's a good thing that there are no hatcheries for Puget Sound rockfish, because I'd hate to see that naturally producing fishery go into decline too!

[Bodofish]

Well, all I can say is that it's a good thing that there are no hatcheries for Puget Sound rockfish, because I'd hate to see that naturally producing fishery go into decline too!

Oh Snap! it already is........

[natetreat]

3I've said it before, I'll say it again: This is about religion. The religion of "wild fish". Hatchery fish are not the downfall of wild fish. It won't make one bit of difference if we get rid of them.

We already cut hatchery production in half over the last 10 year, only 9 rivers instead of 27. That's right, we ALREADY stopped putting these fish in 18 rivers. It happened slowly, and now we have guys getting grumpy because they have to share fewer fish and miles of river.

The thing that irritates me is the sheer numbers. What, maybe a grand worth of fish come back to the Skykomish hatcheries? Most of them end up as cat food after they've been spawned, maybe a few go home with fishermen. That's not a lot of fish.

We killed puget sound. We dumped our septic tanks in it, we diked it's rivers, logged it's mountains and the few fish we had left we netted and sold to New York and Asia. Habitat destruction. It's like taking an ice pick to a friggin glacier, this will not solve any problems.

What it does do is give the native fish religion a moral victory. They want victory, not results. Victory at any price. So what if nobody gets to fish for the darn things, they will feel better about themselves because they were the ones to shut it down and save the 10 fish that might interbreed. Every little bit counts.

Pretty soon we won't be able to buy anything but twisty light bulbs, drive anything but a Prius, have anything made of plastic, use lead weight fishing, eat meat or leave the light on in the other room while you're in the bathroom without going to jail. It's all the same thing, ideology at any price. Us guides and tackle shops need to sue WDFW for loss of income for 6 months out of the year, that's what we need to do. Because apparently if WDFW gets sued, they pee their pants and do whatever you tell them to.

[MarkFromSea]

If the WDFW had it's required permit from the National Marine Fishery Sevice, there wouldn't be a law suit. They have been rquired to have this permit for the last 7 years. What is the hold up? What is the status of the permit? They have about 6 weeks to get it or the tax payers loose millions of dollars worth of smolts, fisherman loose at least a season of local steelheading, the WDFW may loose some license fees and jobs, the industry looses sales. We all loose except for WFC who gets their name in the paper.

It's not just one season. How do you replace the absence of the stock that produced the hatchery fish? You painstakingly collect them over years within the cycle.... multiple cycles to get the numbers back to harvestable amounts. If the 2016-17 fish are gone, if it's a 3 year cycle, every third year is gone. How would you begin to replace the brood stock to restart the hatchery? Remember, collecting wilds to produce hatchery stock won't be allowed.

I hope the WDFW can cut and paste some material together to get this issue resolved, permit, whatever it takes.

[MarkFromSea]

Mark, direct quote from the page you linked...

"Through science, education, and advocacy, Wild Fish Conservancy promotes technically and socially responsible habitat, fisheries, and hatchery management to better sustain the region’s wild-fish heritage."

Also...

"Through the Wild Salmon Recovery Initiative, Wild Fish Conservancy is influencing federal, state, and local agencies to fully implement and comply with the Endangered Species Act, the Clean Water Act, and other local, state, and federal statutes. Wild Fish Conservancy is making fisheries management more transparent, strengthening land-use and water-quality regulations, and raising the bar for acceptable hatchery management."

Again, I am not siding with WFC. They make it sound like they aren't against the hatcheries, just the way in which they are being managed. They more than likely have alterior motives in all this, but from what I have seen so far, it does not seem like they are trying to completely do away with hatcheries all together. Now... all of these quotes come directly from the WFC and I am going to assume that they are %100 biased. If someone can point me in the direction of any information that shows and/or proves that the WFC is trying to destroy (not alter) the hatchery program in washington (or elsewhere), please let me/us know.

I had a long response written, walakes logged me off, the text is gone. In summary: spotted owl.... if you don't know what that did to the state, you won't understand. WFC seeks to destroy all hatcheries.... period....

Mark when you said Spotted Owl that's all that should be said. Thousands of jobs and opportunities were lost when logging was blamed for the population loss of the spotted owl. A little more research revealed that migrated Barred owls were munching on our beloved Spotted Owl resulting in rapid population loss. Today's Wild Steelhead are yesterday's Spotted Owl.

Exactly! That little effing owl destroyed more than can be calculated accurately. Destroyed logging and the dollars it brought for fed and state lands, reduced deer numbers statewide, eliminated access to public lands, thousands of jobs lost in a cascading effect.

I recently read somewhere the state is looking for people to shoot some of those barred owls you mentioned. That's about 30 years too late! "I hear they taste like chicken!"

[MarkFromSea]

3I've said it before, I'll say it again: This is about religion. The religion of "wild fish". Hatchery fish are not the downfall of wild fish. It won't make one bit of difference if we get rid of them.

We already cut hatchery production in half over the last 10 year, only 9 rivers instead of 27. That's right, we ALREADY stopped putting these fish in 18 rivers. It happened slowly, and now we have guys getting grumpy because they have to share fewer fish and miles of river.

The thing that irritates me is the sheer numbers. What, maybe a grand worth of fish come back to the Skykomish hatcheries? Most of them end up as cat food after they've been spawned, maybe a few go home with fishermen. That's not a lot of fish.

We killed puget sound. We dumped our septic tanks in it, we diked it's rivers, logged it's mountains and the few fish we had left we netted and sold to New York and Asia. Habitat destruction. It's like taking an ice pick to a friggin glacier, this will not solve any problems.

What it does do is give the native fish religion a moral victory. They want victory, not results. Victory at any price. So what if nobody gets to fish for the darn things, they will feel better about themselves because they were the ones to shut it down and save the 10 fish that might interbreed. Every little bit counts.

Pretty soon we won't be able to buy anything but twisty light bulbs, drive anything but a Prius, have anything made of plastic, use lead weight fishing, eat meat or leave the light on in the other room while you're in the bathroom without going to jail. It's all the same thing, ideology at any price. Us guides and tackle shops need to sue WDFW for loss of income for 6 months out of the year, that's what we need to do. Because apparently if WDFW gets sued, they pee their pants and do whatever you tell them to.

We need someone that can sue WFC! WFC stopped WDFW.... WDFW needs WFC to drop the suit or have it tossed. This isn't JUST about steelhead, they're attacking salmon hatcheries also. Which tribes benefit from steelhead and or salmon, commercials and sportsmen? Do the tribes see this as a threat? I think they should. You're right Nate about they want a win, they chose the weakest, least funded entity to attack... Winter steelhead in rivers... it's a sportsman issue and a small percentage of sportsmen as a whole. Indians won't see it as a threat until WFC attacks their hatcheries or their fish, it's coming.

PS The incandescent bulb for standard home lighting is already gone....... lead is already prohibited in a few lakes.... steel is already required to hunt ducks.... have you seen the price of beef lately.... that's already cost prohibitive... LOL We are so f#@$%d dudes! What's the name of the judge sitting on this case, where's he at? Need a pressure point, governor, legislators, who do we contact? WDFW has their hands full right now, regs are being formed, their bio guys are all tied up on the speaking circuit.

[BentRod]

It made the Seattle PI:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 371030.php

[Steelheadin360]

No hatchery fish = catch and release for Natives?

The problem is the don't let us as anglers remove all the hatchery fish, due to shortened season and MIS-CLIPPING hatchery stock. I dont know how many fish I have caught with all the fins worn down and that little adipose just hanging out up there. Come on WDFW...

[sealegs]

I'm reading these threads and learning a great deal. I resolved myself for road trips for the near future!

[natetreat]

There will be no C&R season either. The way that PS steelhead are all lumped together means that even the healthy runs aren't available. Occupy Skagit, anyone?

What really REALLY irks me is that WDFW has known this was coming for a long time. They've already made drastic changes to the programs in response to ESA listing, which we have all noticed in the declining quality of our sport fishing, they simply need to get approval from NMFS. Whether it's NOAA or WDFW's fault, they've had years to get the thing done. We have to put a bunch of blame on WDFW for allowing this technicality to exist in the first place.

Where once Washington was a destination for sport angling, we will now be a foot note in the fishing books. Oregon and BC and Alaska are winning the quality fishery. Washington even has a world wide fly fishing phenomenon named after it. Skagit casting. Our native fish on the OP will never be addressed until they are on the verge of extinction. An ESA listing out there will effectively end steelheading in Washington for good. Which it will happen if we continue on this road.

Commercial fishermen don't give a rip about steelhead. Aint no money in it. It's not a cash crop for supermarkets. The tribes don't care, they'll net anything, although they don't really net steelhead in PS, and they wouldn't stop netting because of this anyway.

WFC isn't concerned with fishing. They aren't concerned with economics. They are blindly running around ignoring the very reason we even care about steelhead. Because we can fish for them. I don't know how many times I've had to explain to people what a steelhead is, but it's a lot. Without angling, nobody will know, or even care, about the state of extinction. No one can tell the difference between a wild caught steelhead and a farm raised triploid trout.

WFC has betrayed anglers in the worst way. This is garbage. They are trying to put me out of business. They need to be stopped. I am very annoyed with this.

[natetreat]

Here's a link to the lawsuit, if you want to read it. http://wildfishconservancy.org/copy_of_ ... 1_2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[4steelhead]

The WDFW hopes to come to an agreement with WFC next week, I dont see that happening. Not without loosing a few fisheries in the process. You can kiss wild steelhead retention goodbye. WDFW is trying to blame NOAA for stalling on the permit but doesn't believe they will get the permit in time. WDFW told me that they believe they will get the permit by next year. When I asked what their plan is for broodstock, he couldn't comment. I hope plenty of 3 salts come back in 2015! If NOAA has stalled for 10 years, why will they magically appear now? Something smells fishy. WFC has a law suit against NOAA for granting a permit to release hatchery fish in the Elwah River. So far they are successful in reducing the Elhaw smolt plant to just 50k. Its a good thing we invested millions and millions of dollars to build a new hatchery over there.

[4steelhead]

I don't believe WFDW has properly filed for a permit since 2007.

[natetreat]

Us guides should sue WDFW for loss of income, because they are idiots and didn't get a permit.

[Weekend-warrior17]

Us guides should sue WDFW for loss of income, because they are idiots and didn't get a permit.

Was wondering when that switch would click over .

[jd39]

Us guides should sue WDFW for loss of income, because they are idiots and didn't get a permit.

Guides and individual anglers should join up and file a class action lawsuit against the wdfw if that's possible. Anyone know any lawyers we could explore the option with? They have a responsibility to us, that they accept by receiving our taxes and license fees, and are totally failing that responsibility. If NOAA or whoever wasn't doing their job then the wdfw should have taken them to court to force the issue, again, on our behalf. Somehow we have to remind these #%*^+ that they work for us. I will happily join the suit if a lawyer thinks it viable and has a chance to advance in court. If those WFC can be added as defendants too, all the better! As part of the suit we'd want not only hatcheries operating at full bore but a wdfw action plan to address the decline in hatchery returns. We want the fisheries our #%{*% money pays for! #%#%%^+!
Ok i'm a little annoyed too!