4 dollars a gallon...

[Drewp]

I truly believe in the American people and in American business.

That sounds naive, even for a Libertarian. I'm all for believing in this country and its people, but are you saying that at all costs, there is nowhere that a line should be drawn? Shoot, maybe all the oil companies should just merge into one.

[lskiles]

I truly believe in the American people and in American business.

That sounds naive, even for a Libertarian. I'm all for believing in this country and its people, but are you saying that at all costs, there is nowhere that a line should be drawn? Shoot, maybe all the oil companies should just merge into one.

That is no more naive than to think that government control of any industry could be good for them or for their consumers.

When you cap the profits a company can make it is the same as capping the wage a man can make.
Companies are not buildings they are people, investors, employees, etc.

Where do we draw the line?
Should a man be able to make a million dollars a year?
Should he be able to make ten million?

As far as the oil companies all merging into one is that not what happens, in effect, when they are all controlled by the “Ministry of Oil Profits and Production.”

[Drewp]

At least with the government, we as the people have control over who we decide is fit to make those kind of decisions. Us proles have no say over what oil companies do. Unless you're a major shareholder, but then you're kind of excluded from the common folk category and certainly wouldn't support anything that might limit your investment.

Yes, I do think a reasonable cap could and should be reached - particularly when that capped money gets reinvested into ways out of the energy crisis. 36 billion dollars in profits for ONE year sounds quite disproportionate when you conisider that a 4 dollar gallon of gas is hurting the consumers and damaging the overall world economy.

Not looking for handouts, but how about cutting some losses and meeting the people half way?

[joshswrench]

At least with the government, we as the people have control over who we decide is fit to make those kind of decisions. Us proles have no say over what oil companies do. Unless you're a major shareholder, but then you're kind of excluded from the common folk category and certainly wouldn't support anything that might limit your investment.

Yes, I do think a reasonable cap could and should be reached - particularly when that capped money gets reinvested into ways out of the energy crisis. 36 billion dollars in profits for ONE year sounds quite disproportionate when you conisider that a 4 dollar gallon of gas is hurting the consumers and damaging the overall world economy.

Not looking for handouts, but how about cutting some losses and meeting the people half way?

I couldn't agree more Drew. The only problem is trying to get everyone in congress on the same page. Hard part of that is trying to get around all the lobbyists so we can do it. I hope I'm not the only one who's written to a congressman/senator about this.

[Gisteppo]

Companies are not buildings they are people, investors, employees, etc.

George W Bush was once quoted as saying "Corporations are people too" in an offhanded comment before a talk he was giving. I wholeheartedly oppose that thought because corporations rarely have a conscience.

Let's reanalyze the control of an industry by a government entity. Say you have an industry that has infrastructure in place with capital investment projects in the billions of dollars. Lets say the industry is held by a group of about 25 companies, who meet regularly to set prices and industry plans. They then decide to increase their prices to consumers regardless of what the consumer's needs are.

This was the electric utilities situation early last century.

Are you familiar with BPA? They are publicly held, but are regulated federally. Amazingly, they are a very profitable, lucrative business. They regularly get increases in prices after bringing their reasoning before a public board, which can confirm or deny the requests. The result is affordable power which has solid infrastructure, very good profitability, employs MANY people at a very strong wage, and pays their executives an industry-standard package. Regionally in Spokane, we have Avista, a Texas based company with an energy wing out here. Same story.

The proof is in the pudding. Energy companies can be regulated to the benefit of all involved.

E

[kantill]

The oil companies are not going just start spending money into R&D to find a way to put them out of business. The biggest competitors to replace oil are electric or hydrogen and both of those they can't charge for. The oil companies are going to ride this pony into the ground. As for the government they already have said that what the oil companies are doing is legal so having them run anything won’t help us at all. I fear that we have some dark times ahead.

[joshswrench]

Companies are not buildings they are people, investors, employees, etc.

George W Bush was once quoted as saying "Corporations are people too" in an offhanded comment before a talk he was giving. I wholeheartedly oppose that thought because corporations rarely have a conscience.

Let's reanalyze the control of an industry by a government entity. Say you have an industry that has infrastructure in place with capital investment projects in the billions of dollars. Lets say the industry is held by a group of about 25 companies, who meet regularly to set prices and industry plans. They then decide to increase their prices to consumers regardless of what the consumer's needs are.

This was the electric utilities situation early last century.

Are you familiar with BPA? They are publicly held, but are regulated federally. Amazingly, they are a very profitable, lucrative business. They regularly get increases in prices after bringing their reasoning before a public board, which can confirm or deny the requests. The result is affordable power which has solid infrastructure, very good profitability, employs MANY people at a very strong wage, and pays their executives an industry-standard package. Regionally in Spokane, we have Avista, a Texas based company with an energy wing out here. Same story.

The proof is in the pudding. Energy companies can be regulated to the benefit of all involved.

E

I understand what your saying here and I fully agree. It reminds me of the commerical about the dish network people sitting around in the meeting. "They wouldn't know hd if it bit 'em"

[Gisteppo]

The concept of profit caps forces the oil industry to DEVELOP technologies such as electric and hydrogen that have, to this point, been underfunded. With the vast wealth of an oil company, they can continue to provide energy products and technologies to consumers under the same name, but relieving themselves of the burden of oil as their main income stream.

When profits are capped, they must find ways to reinvest. Im guessing there aren't many people on here who are business owners themselves, so some of this may seem abstract, but there is much reinvestment that is done by small to large businesses to reduce profits every day. Their main incentive? Increased taxes. We have been SUBSIDIZING oil companies through no-cost land rights, reduced taxation, and corporate assistance programs for years. If we keep all the subsidies and tax cuts in place, what reason do they have for not changing?

E

[cavdad45]

I like to believe we can do anything in this country. We should settle for nothing less.

=d> =d> =d>

Oh yeah, government take over. That's the true spirit of socialism. Then we can ration gas to and usher in the day of carbon credits (new method of taxation.)

Did the Commies give up on the takeover of the drug companies and socialized (government siezed) health care? Probably not. We see how well that works with Canadians coming across the border to get quality medical treatment.

There is a fundamental equation at stake here. Government vs. Liberty. As government increases, our liberties decrease. As government decreases our liberty increases. The two are incompatible. (check my spelling, LOL)

Maybe the government needs to takeover the tomato farms, too!!!


How about a profit cap on your personal income? Say $20,000?

[A9]

Companies are not buildings they are people, investors, employees, etc.

George W Bush was once quoted as saying "Corporations are people too" in an offhanded comment before a talk he was giving. I wholeheartedly oppose that thought because corporations rarely have a conscience.

It's not their fault we buy what they sell...

[kantill]

Gisteppo when the group that just did a investigation on the oil companies to make sure that they are not price gouging came back and reported that they are not. So yes the concept of a price is great but the reality of one happing anytime soon is very unlikely. The reason the other alternatives are underfunded couldn't be do to the fact that the oil industry is a multi billion dollar industry and they will do anything to keep that way? Hmmm

Do some research into Stanley Meyers who died back in the late 90's after working on a new way of producing hydrogen. The reason I said that they wont be able to charge for those technologies is due you can't patent hydrogen only the process to create it, and unless they buy all the electric companies again not much can be done there. Many people agree that if any of these can put into mass production it would be the end of the oil industry.

The only way to make a fair trade of profit and making it easier on the rest of the world would be to have a organization that has nothing to gain either way, the government has to much invested in oil to walk away.

The one thing that cavdad45 said that was true is the USA does have the oil to supply us with fuel for a very long time, those dark times maybe I spoke of. We as a country might have to consider drilling for that oil to keep us going. No I don't want that happen and we need to push are government for a replacement fuel.

[kevinb]

Leftfield question
When the oil companies were sent to Capital Hill,why weren't they under oath? If they have nothing to hide,they shouldn't have to worry about being sworn in..
anyhow...

[iPodrodder]

There was a commercial replayed on the Colbert Report in which John McCain called global warming an issue of "homeland security". Colbert then suggested lumping health care, oil costs and Social Security into the same category, and hey! all America's problems fixed!

Maybe that's what Congress is doing. They're buying all of America's enemy's oil so that in case of a world war they have none left to use and we have the giant Dakota and Alaska reserves left.

[Mike Carey]

There was a commercial replayed on the Colbert Report in which John McCain called global warming an issue of "homeland security". Colbert then suggested lumping health care, oil costs and Social Security into the same category, and hey! all America's problems fixed!

Maybe that's what Congress is doing. They're buying all of America's enemy's oil so that in case of a world war they have none left to use and we have the giant Dakota and Alaska reserves left.

If you believe the Peak Oil theory (which I don't - I still remember Carter saying we only have ten years of oil left or some such nonsense) then it actually is a good strategy to use up the other guy's oil first. But I don't believe in Peak Oil anymore than I believe oil comes from dinosauers.

[Gisteppo]

Oh yeah, government take over. That's the true spirit of socialism. Then we can ration gas to and usher in the day of carbon credits (new method of taxation.)

Did the Commies give up on the takeover of the drug companies and socialized (government siezed) health care? Probably not. We see how well that works with Canadians coming across the border to get quality medical treatment.

There is a fundamental equation at stake here. Government vs. Liberty. As government increases, our liberties decrease. As government decreases our liberty increases. The two are incompatible. (check my spelling, LOL)

Maybe the government needs to takeover the tomato farms, too!!!


How about a profit cap on your personal income? Say $20,000?

Cav, cmon. There is no point made here, you just poke fun, and I vastly prefer a debate. I know you listen to enough radio to have either rebuttal points or more points of your own. Rationing gas and carbon credits weren't brought up and are ineffective at best. Socialized medicine never had any effect on drug companies other than bargaining price like every country in the world EXCEPT the US does. That isn't the point of this thread.

Kantill you make your own point in one paragraph:

Gisteppo when the group that just did a investigation on the oil companies to make sure that they are not price gouging came back and reported that they are not. So yes the concept of a price is great but the reality of one happing anytime soon is very unlikely. The reason the other alternatives are underfunded couldn't be do to the fact that the oil industry is a multi billion dollar industry and they will do anything to keep that way? Hmmm

Unless forced to do so, the oil companies will never use their massive resources for anything other than making more money. The way they stay competitive and profitable isn't owning electric companies, but it is to own production facilities for batteries and components, hydrogen production facilities, and the various industries required to produce components of said cars.

I still see millions of one ton, four door, dually pickups burning a gallon of gas every ten miles or gallon of diesel every 18 miles. I see people commuting 40 miles every day and using cars getting less than 30mpg. I see people driving 500+ miles for their vacation, when there is an airport in that same town, which would spread the fuel usage out with the rest of the occupants in the plane. People who could commute to work by bus, by carpool, by bicycle, or god forbid, by foot.

To be fair, I live 13 miles from work. I drive a 22mpg toyota pickup. I only work there every 4th day, and I commute 24 hours apart. I hate driving in. My wife just quit her job to become a freelancer, reducing her need to drive to town daily in her 30mpg car going 14 miles. I am completing an engine swap on my little sled, cutting the fuel usage by 60% (70hp 2 stroke jet to 50hp 4 stroke prop). If I take the nice boat out, we almost always go less than 20 mph.

I dont want to be a "heavy user" of oil, and Im trying to find ways that I, personally, can reduce the fuel I buy. If I could find an extra $10,000 I would build an electric car from a kit. I can't afford that, but I sure wish I could.

E

[kantill]

Well like said earlier I am doing alot of research into these hydrogen on demand systems, yes some of them have been scams. When I do find one that works I'll post it here so you can use it. To prove they do work and need just to find the one, here is a link to check out

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1 ... X1K0000532

[cavdad45]

The point I was trying to make and that you were so deperately trying to ignore was that government is a user of other people's vision, risk, and investment. Government produces nothing and is incapable of managing anything. Governmental takeover of any industry defies the principles of American freedom and liberty.

What kind of success can we expect from a government run oil industry? Let's look at how poorly they run everything else they meddle with. Education: our public education system is a failure on a global proportion, especially when third world countries better educate their children in mathematics and sciences than we do. Social Security: enough said, you and i will continue to pay and never see it when our time rolls around.

Those people can't even run a lunchroom!!!! Forty years of mismanagement and taxpayer bailouts!!! That's what we can expect from a beaucratic socialist takeover of the oil industry.

If you think a $24,000 toilet seat is expensive, wait until you see a gallon of government gas!

Now on a personal note: I don't listen to the radio as my work schedule precludes much of that (preferring CD's while driving.)

[Drewp]

Cav, it sounds to me like you are saying that the government ruins everything and that we shouldn't give them more power. Should we simply continue on as is? I think we can all agree that our system is less than perfect as it is. Don't get me wrong, i don't have the perfect system or the answers, I just cant see letting the market figure itself out as being a route to future success for US.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that the government should take over and run the oil industry. That's blowing things way out of proportion. The problem with big business is that (pardon the cliche) money talks. There are no checks and balances when you're talking about wealth and more often than not, big business is able to buy its way out of trouble.

"Not talkin' bout rich, I'm talkin' bout wealth." (Name that quote anyone?)

I can see your point in that government regulation of business may be at odds with some of the principles of American freedom and liberty, but though those principles sound awesome, they don't apply anymore with all of the wealth not only in this country but in the world. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is next to impossible. The globe in general has changed vastly since the birth and rise of America, and without some serious head checks, and God forbid the idea of CHANGE in both its citizens and its government, there is a real possiblity of some dark times ahead.

[A9]

This thread title might need to be re-titled 5 dollars a gallon. $4.69 in Northern California, wondering how much it is in the Seattle area?

[kevinb]

This thread title might need to be re-titled 5 dollars a gallon. $4.69 in Northern California, wondering how much it is in the Seattle area?

$4.27 in the Puyallup/Tacoma area for 87 octane(lawnmower juice)I'm headed up to Joes to look at some mountain bikes.Instead of burning up gas all the time,I'm going to burn off my fat@$$